996 Turbo Remap - Potential "Group Buy"

Apologies if this is in the wrong section .... Following on from the discussion in this thread http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=36234 about Revo remaps and the benefits and issues with varying mapping techniques and warranty implications, I have contacted a supplier of the PP100 / Selecta Switch / Pocket Power device (info here http://www.milfordmicros.co.uk/milfordmicro/PP100/ ) who can supply these units with a variety of maps for the turbo 996s. The initial price is c. £1,000 inc. VAT for the device and a performance map, additional maps such as a valet map and immobiliser map can also be added if required. The performance maps were developed on rolling roads and come from a reputable mapper. If there are enough people interested then I will see if they will do a group buy to bring the cost down, if not then if anyone is interested let me know and I will pass on their details (once I have had confirmation from them it is OK to do so). At the moment I am waiting to hear back from them with dyno plots of the maps on the development cars, group buy numbers / prices etc. Expected power from an x50 / "S" with a sports exhaust is 550BHP (same as DMS, REVO etc.). I will post expected power gains from other cars when I receive the info back. Anyone interested?

Interested but, would like more detail of the MAP(S) and the gains etc.

I would also suggest having a look at the May 08 JZ Machtech offer of the month, which is an tuning upgrade on the 996 Turbo for £1250 per http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=36130 but be quick as it end at the end of May

Advert says £1,450? The basic map here is only about £500 (there are others even cheaper than that available), the main benefit here though is the ability to switch this map and the additional valet and immobiliser modes. £1,450 or even £1,250 just for a re-map is too much money, people chargin a premium as you are a Porsche owner, unless it is a fully custom map done on a rolling road?? I doubt it is as it is claiming the same 490BHP for a standard turbo that all the others do, a custom map can yield more than that, as proved by Westys on his own car. Re-mapping a car is easy once you have the map developed, a couple of hours max for diagnostics before and after. Money for old rope, especially when most of the maps are near enough identical (according to more than one source of remap!!), the maps get traded between tuning companies frequently!

Will post more info once I have it, not heard back from him yet. He said he would have to dig out the dyno plots from his filing cabinet and scan them in, so it could take a few days.

So he does a lot of Turbos then?

You make an assumption that the cost is for just a remap. I think JZ do more than just remap and may be providing some uprated hardware to cope with the additional HP/torque for that price. However, it's best to check with them what their price actually includes. It's relatively easy to remap Turbo'd cars, but making the additional power reliable is another issue altogether. Consider that Porsche themselves didn't just remap the TT to give you the X50... they included a number of other bits of uprated hardware (cooling/gearbox/turbos/etc) to cope with the relatively modest power increase. I would be very wary of any 'tuner' who is happy to remap a standard Turbo to beyond X50 power levels without consideration for the other components required to make the car reliable. I keep on saying it... - Power - Low price - Reliability ... but you can only have 2 out of the 3 above when it comes to tuning.

He used to at his old company, where he developed the maps but has moved on and mainly deals with VAG cars now, hence not having the Porsche plots to hand.

True, however there are plenty of "reputable" tuners out there (Revo, AMD, DMS....) who will remap the Turbo to ~490 BHP and the x50 / Turbo S to ~510 BHP without changing anything else on the engine. This is what they regard as "safe" on the standard engine and a point where reliability is not sacrificed too much. It is not always about getting more power, but also in the delivery, the original Porsche x50 maps were (alledgedly) quite "lumpy" (Porsche technicians words not mine), which they themselves have sorted out to a degree with newer maps for the same car. A lot of the performance maps also seek to smooth out the power delivery and can enhance the experience of driving without actually increasing the boost and power levels. A good tuner will run diagnostics before remapping and check airlfows, temperatures etc. after the remap to try to minimise the chance of reliability issues down the line, but re-mapping always comes with a risk to reliability, you are right. If you choose to remap your car then you accept that risk, however you can still pay £500, £1200 (REVO) or £2000+ (DMS) for just a remap, what I am saying is that remap-remap there is not a lot of difference or to choose between them. You can always get additional cooling, exhaust systems etc. to assist in reliability, but then you start opening the door to being able to run more boost! You add bigger turbos and better cooling to get the x50, but then you can remap that to get more power!!

Definitely interested

He has been off on maternity leave the past week, due back in the office today. I'd imagine he has forgotten about this completely from when i spoke to him a week and a bit ago, so it may be a few more days before I get any more details.

The re map market is a bit of a minefield for trying to evaluate what constitutes value for money. No company seems to warranty their work and the prices are variable for very similar claims in performance gain. I'd imagine all the various maps are very similar but I would also imagine that the best result would come from some sort of live mapping where the map was done for the specific car. However a stock or preset map should be fine, I mean the std one is a stock map and that seems to work ok.......... What makes a DMS or Revo worth 2k & JZM 1.5k and an FVD about 1.2k? Just because your car has a Porsche badge? An Audii TT can be re mapped for £383 + vat...........

It can be done for a hell of a lot cheaper than that! Some well known VAG tuning specialists are doing them as low as £210 inc. VAT on generic stage 1 maps. There is so much competition out there for the VAG engines though, hence the prices dropping right down. 3 years ago I paid £500 for a Revo for my TT, that was the going rate. Am sure tuners will react with the prices on the 996tt as more and more maps become available. On your other point, if you were pushing the engine to near its limits then having it properly done a rolling road is a must! However these outputs are "proven" to an extent and are tuned down from absolute max power to try to make them "safe" on all cars, not just the one it was developed on.

Not exactly the same, the base VW Golf platform with the popular 1.8 Turbo 4 cylinder VW Engine is a very versatile engine and is designed for the mass market in all of its variants whereas for 3-4 times the money you're into new 911 Turbo money and a completely different engineering and ability range. The engine alone in a 911 Turbo costs more than an Audi TT, so there is a bit more that tuners put into the upgrade, not forgetting for a much smaller market.

As a tuner myself I will weigh into the debate a little, step away and let you boys fight it out hehehe, not like me to be controversial is it? Tuning is not rocket science. Yo must remember though that the hardware required to program some engines is more expensive than others and they must recoup these costs. A good tuner is also insured, and will need to cover themselves. A claim for a turbo engine would be very expensive and therefore they will charge for that fact as well. And if anyone tries to tell me that they are also not loading a badge charge onto it.....without doubt, if you own a Porsche you are expected to pay badge tax where ever you go.... In most cases the extra power is achieved by increasing the boost. This will increase the fuel pressure proportionally at that boost as the fuel pressure regulator is linked to manifold pressure. This increase in pressure then decreases fuel flow so it is important to ensure the pump is up to the task. Intercoolers should really be upgraded with a boost increase as the extra boost normally pushes the turbos out of their efficient zone increasing the heat output. (Go and look at a turbo pressure map to see what I mean). Go too far with the boost and you'll be worse off as all you get is hot air .... A proper tune should include a fuel pressure check at full boost, post intercooler temp check, a watch on the knock sensors to spot for abnormal amounts of knock....all this should be done with a lambda meter in the exhaust measuring the air / fuel ratio to ensure a good burn..... In most cases gearboxes etc will take twice the power of standard albeit with reduced life.... don't expect to get a million mile from it, maybe 100,000 versus 500,000 from a standard one etc..... Lastly, a good tuner will charge a premium for their skills and that's fine by me if they are good and are doing a custom job. Cheers,