DVLA- Rage against the machine!

I'm seeking some advice from those of you who may have the same bitter experience and maybe some of you legal types. Friday mornings post sent me into orbit. I recieved a letter from the DVLA informing me that I was to pay an £80 fine (£40 for an early discount, no doubt to coax me into submission and an early payment!) for not paying road tax on a vehicle I have bought recently. Not only am I subject to having my very environmentally car tax doubled by this stealth taxing government, I am now subject to yet another stealth tax. In brief I bought a Kawasaki ZX6R to use as a track bike. It had tax on it when I bought it but has NEVER been ridden by me on the road and is not in a road legal state as I'm racing it. I recieved the V5 after immediately registering the vehicle in my name when I bought it but never recieved a V11 tax reminder unlike my other vehicles, a 911 and another ZX6R and a Suzuki DRZ all of which I tax religiously. The first correspondance I have recieved is a fine for not declaring it SORN or taxing it with demands to pay the interim amount in back payment for a bike thats not been used or parked on a road. Had I recieved a V11 to prompt me into doing one or the other I would have declared SORN on the form provided. It never came. I can't help but feel that this is a form of entrapment, don't send the reminder and then fine the motorist! Additionally I think it is an abuse of process because I did not recieve the reminder. I am certainly not of a mind to pay the fine and am considering opting for court. Does anyone have experience in this field that can advise me suitably? I would be very grateful for your input. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

I feel for you, this has happened to a few ppl I know.

One of the governments main agendas has been to criminalize motorists. Would not be surprised if were fined for just owning a vehicle next ! [ ]

Whilst I can see this is very annoying, surely it is the motorist responsibility to be aware of when to tax or sorn a vehicle, rather than waiting for a reminder in the post? Just as it would be, for example, to remember to get the MOT done for which there are no reminders, or renew your OPC warrantee? Even if a reminder had been sent, regular post (as opposed to recorded delivery) is not a guaranteed, fool-proof delivery mechanism anyway - i.e. they _may_ have sent a reminder and it didn't reach you.

Can sympathise I changed cars a couple of years ago just before Xmas and as it was stinking wet day the salesman offered to post the signed and stamped envelope containg v form to DVLA Big mistake First I knew it had not been received was when penalty dropped through door DVLA arguement was it was my responsibility to PERSONALLY advise them of change and someone other than me keeper of vehicle was not PERSONALLY notifying! So as tax on traded in vehicle was due in Jan where was renewal notice which never arrived? Oh we cannot be responsible for it not arriving and getting lost in post! Oh says I so why am I resposible for my notification getting lost in post to you? Loop back to I am responsible etc. This went on for some three months and DVLA refused point plank to see sense Eventually dealer who said this is not an uncommon occurance paid it for me. Seems the DVLA can have their cake and eat it

There was an article on BBC Breakfast News this morning suggesting there could be lots of drivers out there driving illegally. If you've passed your test in the last two years , 6 points is enough to loose your licence, but for some reason DVLA haven't been telling drivers. In fact in one case, a girl got her license returned to her, drove for five months, got pulled over by the police (possibly for some other reason). They too her license away, impounded the car and sold it, so she's paying off a £10k loan for a car she no longer has. DVLA blame the courts - the courts say "its not our job".

Any driver who has just trained for and passed their test should definately know that 6 points is their limit during the probational period. What is it with society these days that everything is someone else's fault and take on no personal responsibility?

Martin, What I think people are complaining about is the total lack of discretion,flexibility,care for people in this increasingly computer/camera/statistic driven society.Once upon a time some allowance was made for mistakes etc,now every piece of paper starts with a threat of a penalty just because a small minority abuse the system.For instance,how is it that I am forced to obstruct the pavement outside my home with a wheelybin & recycling crate,which if uncollected(not my fault) & left there,or put there the wrong day,I can be fined,all at the behest of the Council? Cheers, Colin.

I have to be in agreement with Vitesse. The fact of the matter is I didn't report SORN. I knew VEL/SORN was due but MY mistake was to rely on an unreliable Gov.dept to send me the reminder. They seem to have a lot of difficulty doing this- a little bit of homework shows there are many people in my predicament for the following reason. The V11 reminder is produced 10 weeks prior to posting so if you buy a vehicle in this time window as the new owner you will not recieve a V11. Funny how they can efficiently send out a fine to the right keeper and manage the V5 with seemingly no problems. One could almost call it entrapment. Most infuriating of all is there is no appeals method, the AA are pursuing this so wide is this problem. So it's pay up or the fine doubles or have a debt collector take on proceedings. I phoned the DVLA and asked for the complaints department and got put through to the payments line! All I can say is they share my sick sense of humour. I have written to the dept outlining my dissatisfaction but hold little hope of an appropriate response. Just to top it off they want arrears of tax for a vehicle thats never been on a road with out a shred of evidence to say it has. I'd rather be tried criminally, there would be more chance of justice.........But then I'm forgetting, I'm a motorist.

I don't disagree about responsibility but why remind some and not others. Do away with reminders altogether in that case. Funny someone who identifies a stealth tax in their signature block defends another government stealth tax.....Just an observation

my take on this thread is that all any of us would like to see is a bit of human decency from those in "authority"most of us dont want to get away not paying for that which we should;but if we inadvertently dont then a polite reminder,with bill is all thats needed not the heavyhanded assumption that we are all guilty bast**ds trying to screw the state ! sadly this is happening everywhere now so it seems

The irritation, as I see it, is the sense that it is unjust for us but highly convenient for the Government, not to mention profitable. The current rules were introduced because the system was so wide open to abuse - you could just stop paying road tax and claim that the vehicle was off the road, and would only be caught if the vehicle was spotted on the road. Even then, it had to be seen actually making progress on the road - for example, seeing the car parked off the road on Monday, gone on Tuesday, and back on Wednesday was apparently not enough for our Lords and Masters becuase it had never been seen on the road without tax. Quite how it got to and from the carpark would be left unexplained; no doubt the scrote (if asked) would claim to have a trailer, and it would never in a million years occur to a DVLA inspector to ask difficult questions like "OK, can I see it, then?". So they wanted a simple system that would avoid all these loopholes that were, frankly, too much effort for them to look into. So we have a system with zero discretion. Which is fair, right? Except that it isn't. It catches 100% of the reasonable motorists who try to abide by the law but make the odd mistake. We all do from time to time; I'm no exception and if anyone says to me that they never make a mistake then they are immediately identifying themselves as a liar or a politician. What's worse, it still utterly fails to catch the scrotes, because they just don't register the car any more. So they don't get the fine. If you want to see the utter ridiculousness of the system, look at the penalty for failing to give DVLA a correct address. There is a fine ... which they will send to you in the post. To the address they don't have. [8|] Well done, New Labour. Roll on May 2010.

Sorry - wasn't trying to defend stealth taxes at all. And yes, agree there should be some flexibility in all such matters that affect the motorist. It seems we're just an easy target for the government to raise revenues at the moment.

I sent my response regarding my dismay and disgust at the system back yesterday to the DVLA by e mail and additionally by post. In a fairness they did reply to me today to say the matter had been forwarded to the relevant department for due consideration........I suspect I am building up false hope of a sensible or reasonable outcome. I will post the outcome when it arrives. Call me a pessimist but I think I am going to be left seething. Not that I'd let something like this get to me. Now excuse me while I go and smash my head aginst a sympathic concrete pillar!

I hope I'm wrong but I think you are building false hopes. In my considerable experience with the DVLA I'm always amazed that they manage to feed themselves, let alone 'give due consideration' to anything. They are one of the worst manifestations of this society that swings between being a Nanny State for the hopeless and a Police State for the helpless.

Brilliant ! [ ]

So we don't like a Nanny State but we don't like it when we don't get "Nannied". Looks like the DVLA are batting on the preverbial sticky wicket. [&:] Considering the legacy that the current DVLA staff have to deal with, the amount of stuff they deal with, the fact that we can swap and buy plates, hack and slash our vehicles, import just about anything and get it on the road - I don't think they do too bad a job. [8D]

Fair comment they do have a lot to do but the lack of "benefit of the doubt" does rankle It seemed, in my dealings anyway, that you were guilty no matter what reason you gave and the DVLA always were correct no matter what happened or what they did or did not do

A fair point, John, but you are arguing that we should allow them a degree of understanding that they do not allow us.

That would be nice but I guess the people that we deal with are making their decisions from a crib card and are not allowed too much (if any?) discretion when it comes to which box they tick.

The result is has arrived........In quick time to my surprise. Before I state the inevitable I'd like to agree with JCB. The DVLA aren't an administrative disaster, quite the opposite actually, they manage many things on a massive scale and show the ability to do so. My gripe (have you guessed the result yet!) is they are choosing not to resolve this procedure which leaves so many law abiding motorists out on a limb and have in fact in their response state they are aware that the production of the V11 reminder two months in advance leaves many of us without warning but default to stating "its my fault and pay up". Very convenient and profitable. Also very unfair. Why should one customer receive a reminder and not another. So my proposal if we are all infallible is to bin all reminders and then we all know where we stand. I'm sure that would suit the DVLA, first of all they would save all the money they spend on reminders and secondly they'd make more money fining people who care to conform and register their vehicles to subsidise the thousands that don't. All I feel that I can do is pay up under protest and vote against this stealth tax come the election. Sadly I doubt much will change in this dept even with a change of government. Best advice I can give is if you have a vehicle thats laid up is to put your SORN dates on a calender and not rely on the reminder

Unlucky there but might be worth opting for the court option if its still available. I worked for HMRC a couple of years ago on a replacement for the paper-based VAT reminder (i.e. the VAT Return form). One of the major considerations was to ensure the email prompt was issued at the right time or to send a letter because a reminder could be expected by a customer if in the past they had always received one and so a late return could be appealed if a reminder wasn't received. There was a particular headache with timing the prompt because of the different VAT periods and it had to be far enough in advance to give the customer chance to make arrangements but not too far in advance so as to be forgotten on the due date. I think there were some conditions applied to consider the registration date and only issue penalties after a full reminder cycle had been completed. Does this help? I daren't re-read it to check it makes sense but I think a court might consider the state of the bike, it's intended use and the length of time you'd had it more than DVLA would. (whisper! - there might even be a chance that they'd drop the penalty if you lay out your case to DVLA and give them an idea of the likely costs you'd be claiming from them if you win?) Good luck... I've just SORN'd my wife's car on the back of this so even if you end up paying, it ain't all bad [ ]

I had a similar thing where a dealer didn't post off the change of keeper form of a car I'd sold. I got a reminder, which I ignored, then a notification of fine and back payment. I wrote to them with a copy of the bill of sale, and they replied saying it was my responsibility to notify etc, but let me off the back-payment as long as I paid the "early-bird" fine which seemed fair enough. But don't get me started on this nonsense that my 2002 3.6, with lower emissions/fuel consumption than a 2001 3.4, has to pay 100% more road tax.[:'(]

Just like RobertB I filled in the details on the reg document for change of ownership but trusted the dealer to send the form off (big mistake) I not only got the fine for not taxing the car but then got another for not noifying them of disposing of the vehicle....double whammy for being honest!! I've learned my lesson and will trust no-one in future but will do it myself!

And which administration has introduced 3600 new criminal offences and numerous 'targets' etc.?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7672570.stm