997 Gen 1 to Gen 2 conversion V Hartech £10k rebuild - Page 2 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Hi folks thanks for all the replies relating to my 997 engine needing a rebuild. I did ask for advice on converting from a Gen 1 3.8 to the Gen 2 and fully accept this isn't plug and play however can any one advise what the fundemental differences are in terms of get the engine to fit in particular enging mounts, gearbox fitment and exhaust manifold connections etc. I would think the existing Gen 1 loom could be retro fitted as i'm not aware of any additional sensors that need to be incorporated but what about the ECU or is this simply to adventurous to be worth considering. I've seen a post of it being done on the Cayman. Its basically just over £10k to do the full Hartech rebuild if i just drop the car off with them and i will still have a (all be it) a 997 with an IMS that might also develop the same issues of bore scoring etc in the future. Are there any reports of Hartech rebuilt 3.8's covering over 100k miles Thanks

The Hartech rebuild is bullet proof. It would be inconceivable / very expensive indeed to successfully convert to a 9A1 from the M97 lump. Bonkers. Do the Hartech, they're great.

Lots of changes to wiring, exhaust, airbox, DME, driveshafts, changes to spoiler etc etc and clearly a nightmare (and worse if not manual gearbox) http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=103105&highli...

systech said: Lots of changes to wiring, exhaust, airbox, DME, driveshafts, changes to spoiler etc etc and clearly a nightmare (and worse if not manual gearbox) http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=103105&highli... And the clocks as well IIRC. No doubt the fuel supply system for the DFi engine is significantly different too. Much as I like the idea of a 3.8 Gen S engine with 385hp (and easily tweaked to 400+hp with some choice/ well thought out mods) it just doesn't stack up financially.

Even if you could do it for the same money, the value of your car would most likely take a big hit, come re-sale.

Just wondered I know it's an old thread or topic but does anyone know if there is a 997 gen 1 that's been converted to gen 2 yet I might take it on see what's involved

Benny McCafferty said: Just wondered I know it's an old thread or topic but does anyone know if there is a 997 gen 1 that's been converted to gen 2 yet I might take it on see what's involved Not that I know of. But some Hartech rebuilt cars with 90K + and going strong. I have a 4.1 conversion and would go for this over a 997.2 every day. Great engine.

I believe that Lichfield did a Gen1 to Gen2 engine transplant for a journalist ... it took ages, was a world of pain, and I'm not sure that we heard the final outcome ??

ChrisW. said: I believe that Lichfield did a Gen1 to Gen2 engine transplant for a journalist ... it took ages, was a world of pain, and I'm not sure that we heard the final outcome ?? Jethro Bovingdon had a 4l (I thnk) put in his 996. Seem to recall it took a lot of fettling.

Good call ... https://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/911/205873/porsche-9... I don't believe that he stayed happy ... suspension was returned to standard ?? But I guess that's a different story ...

It was a 991 3.8 put into Jethro’s car.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gbgDFMzqu7w&pp=y... This one

mr pg said: Jethro Bovingdon had a 4l (I thnk) put in his 996. Seem to recall it took a lot of fettling. It was years being completed and I imagine if you were paying commercial rates, which JB wasn't, it would surely be ruinous. From memory a custom loom was required, a custom exhaust, new engine mounts in the rear shell and possibly a custom ECU? on top of the issues the encountered and the initial cost of the 9A1 engine. Edited by FriedMarsBar on Thursday 30th January 10:35

FriedMarsBar said: I'm the proud owner of gen 2 but if I had a gen 1, in the right colour with the right options, and I could afford a Hartech rebuild (and capacity expansion) I would LOVE tog this route. Edited by FriedMarsBar on Thursday 30th January 10:34 Feels like a torquier GTS

Discombobulate said: Not that I know of. But some Hartech rebuilt cars with 90K + and going strong. I have a 4.1 conversion and would go for this over a 997.2 every day. Great engine. I'm the proud owner of gen 2 but if I had a gen 1, in the right colour with the right options, and I could afford a Hartech rebuild (and capacity expansion) I would LOVE to go this route. Edited by FriedMarsBar on Thursday 30th January 10:34 Edited by FriedMarsBar on Thursday 30th January 12:03

Discombobulate said: Feels like a torquier GTS Perfect car in my opinion, you have the sound of the gen 1 and torque

FriedMarsBar said: It was years being completed and I imagine if you were paying commercial rates, which JB wasn't, it would surely be ruinous. From memory a custom loom was required, a custom exhaust, new engine mounts in the rear shell and possibly a custom ECU? on top of the issues the encountered and the initial cost of the 9A1 engine. Edited by FriedMarsBar on Thursday 30th January 10:35 Read the EVO article recently & pretty sure he said the exhaust cost him the same as he orginally paid for the car!

LordHaveMurci said: Read the EVO article recently & pretty sure he said the exhaust cost him the same as he orginally paid for the car! Jesus H Christ!!! I've seen a couple of updates about on YT but didn't go into huge detail on the costs. I think I'm right in saying that Litchfields took it to use it as potential thing to offer customers but quickly realised it was too much work and costs and nobody would every do it again.

FriedMarsBar said: Jesus H Christ!!! I've seen a couple of updates about on YT but didn't go into huge detail on the costs. I think I'm right in saying that Litchfields took it to use it as potential thing to offer customers but quickly realised it was too much work and costs and nobody would every do it again. As much as I'm a fan of Jethro and 996s, hard to make sense of that project. Even at mates rates for some of the work, he must be well on the way to having invested 996.2 GT3 money into the thing. And, honestly, I'd far rather have a 996.2 GT3. I'm sure the 9A1 3.8 is giving it lots of shove. But character matters. And that's before you get into recouping your investment at resale etc. Reminds me of another Evo project car, Barker's Capri, though that was arguably a fair bit worse from what little I recall. Both classic examples of sunk cost fallacy leading people astray, I fear!

FriedMarsBar said: LordHaveMurci said: Read the EVO article recently & pretty sure he said the exhaust cost him the same as he orginally paid for the car! Jesus H Christ!!! I've seen a couple of updates about on YT but didn't go into huge detail on the costs. I think I'm right in saying that Litchfields took it to use it as potential thing to offer customers but quickly realised it was too much work and costs and nobody would every do it again. Correct, and Ian Litchfield has since estimated the cost of the conversion to have been £60k plus, in his own words, he basically stopped counting at £60k … They did indeed undertake it as they thought there might be mileage in doing future conversions for customers, but Ian has since said they wouldn’t entertain doing another … As the Yanks would say “Go figure”. There are multiple issues in converting a non-DFi platform to run a DFi power train, non of them insurmountable, but the considerable labour required for such an undertaking isn’t cheap these days, nor are decent standalone ECU’s compatible with modern (ish) canbus systems, and that’s without the cost of having a custom loom made up, or the existing loom adapted. Porsche aren’t helping with massive price increases on their parts either … The exhaust was a pointless extravagance that JB wanted, and the cost of the exhaust could have been reduced drastically, by buying off the shelf componentry.

I think it comes under the heading of "It seemed like a good idea at the time". I believe that John still owns the car which he re-visited a couple of issues ago ...

Slippydiff said: Correct, and Ian Litchfield has since estimated the cost of the conversion to have been £60k plus, in his own words, he basically stopped counting at £60k … They did indeed undertake it as they thought there might be mileage in doing future conversions for customers, but Ian has since said they wouldn’t entertain doing another … As the Yanks would say “Go figure”. There are multiple issues in converting a non-DFi platform to run a DFi power train, non of them insurmountable, but the considerable labour required for such an undertaking isn’t cheap these days, nor are decent standalone ECU’s compatible with modern (ish) canbus systems, and that’s without the cost of having a custom loom made up, or the existing loom adapted. Porsche aren’t helping with massive price increases on their parts either … The exhaust was a pointless extravagance that JB wanted, and the cost of the exhaust could have been reduced drastically, by buying off the shelf componentry. thanks for the info, all very interesting

Hi gents and all, thanks for the replies, I wasn't planning on paying anyone, I will do all the work myself, so mounts no problem, wiring a bit of time and figuring out, not too hard, I like the engine design of the Gen 2 the Turbo has a forged crank, the bores/block are stronger, seem to be decent material, less moving parts ,for example no IMS, not read about much failures yet even Hartech commented somewhere, they have not seen enough problems or failures to comment, I have read that cams have spun but ile pin them and eliminate that problem, I was thinking of converting the Gen 2 engine to run gen 1 fuel system non DFI it will make it a lot easier, ECU and wiring for example, few coolant pipes to overcome no big thing, heads are cast the same without the cut out at inlet for fuel injector, the variable valve timing, may take some thought to work out the oil and solenoid set up some signals to the ecu,but I have no gen 1 engine, but have most of a gen 2 turbo minus pistons and cams so changing them anyway to run naturally aspirated ,so its looking like a bit of a best of parts, to make what I want, I can pick pistons rods, and custom cams, so a bit of a labour of love, I know Hartech do a great gen 1 engine but it outweighs the value of the car, and I cant see these being like old air-cooled 911s in the future, value increasing to much unless a mezger turbo minted example, as too many ordinary 997s around, so I am taking a leap and building something different, but trying is succeeding in my eyes, to be honest Porsche themselves have tried different combinations of these engines and there are a few examples of non turbo with solid lifters and X51 models and GT2 etc, different intake manifolds, fuel and throttle body upgrades and all sorts of in-betweens,so I am not a purist, although I like the cars, I am am a mechanic/engineer with some time to tinker, and learn a bit on the way, And these are just my comments and opinion, not trying to pee anyone off,or be annoying, we all love our cars and are all different, so don't shoot me

Benny McCafferty said: Hi gents and all, thanks for the replies, I wasn't planning on paying anyone, I will do all the work myself, so mounts no problem, wiring a bit of time and figuring out, not too hard, I like the engine design of the Gen 2 the Turbo has a forged crank, the bores/block are stronger, seem to be decent material, less moving parts ,for example no IMS, not read about much failures yet even Hartech commented somewhere, they have not seen enough problems or failures to comment, I have read that cams have spun but ile pin them and eliminate that problem, I was thinking of converting the Gen 2 engine to run gen 1 fuel system non DFI it will make it a lot easier, ECU and wiring for example, few coolant pipes to overcome no big thing, heads are cast the same without the cut out at inlet for fuel injector, the variable valve timing, may take some thought to work out the oil and solenoid set up some signals to the ecu,but I have no gen 1 engine, but have most of a gen 2 turbo minus pistons and cams so changing them anyway to run naturally aspirated ,so its looking like a bit of a best of parts, to make what I want, I can pick pistons rods, and custom cams, so a bit of a labour of love, I know Hartech do a great gen 1 engine but it outweighs the value of the car, and I cant see these being like old air-cooled 911s in the future, value increasing to much unless a mezger turbo minted example, as too many ordinary 997s around, so I am taking a leap and building something different, but trying is succeeding in my eyes, to be honest Porsche themselves have tried different combinations of these engines and there are a few examples of non turbo with solid lifters and X51 models and GT2 etc, different intake manifolds, fuel and throttle body upgrades and all sorts of in-betweens,so I am not a purist, although I like the cars, I am am a mechanic/engineer with some time to tinker, and learn a bit on the way, And these are just my comments and opinion, not trying to pee anyone off,or be annoying, we all love our cars and are all different, so don't shoot me You won't pee anyone off. And no one will shoot you And we would very much like to be kept abreast of developments / progress. It is going to be quite a project.

that sounds like an interesting project - please do keep this thread updated

I'd echo what the others have said, keep us abreast of plans. As much as I loved 997.1 and love my 997.2 I don't they're ever going to be in the same catergory as air cooled cars simply becuase they sold about four or fives times as many 997s as they did 964/993s.

Thanks guys, once I get started I will post any info that's of interest, pics or progress,

Discombobulate said: Not that I know of. But some Hartech rebuilt cars with 90K + and going strong. I have a 4.1 conversion and would go for this over a 997.2 every day. Great engine. That sounds like a great option, I would think its in the region of 25 to 30k minimum or more without an exchange or repairable engine to give back ???

Benny McCafferty said: That sounds like a great option, I would think its in the region of 25 to 30k minimum or more without an exchange or repairable engine to give back ??? They do it on your engine. My bill was 25k but included loads of other works too. See this for list of some of the works down (it's halfway down page 3 of the thread) https://911uk.com/threads/hartech-rebuild-and-upgr...

Slippydiff said: FriedMarsBar said: LordHaveMurci said: Read the EVO article recently & pretty sure he said the exhaust cost him the same as he orginally paid for the car! Jesus H Christ!!! I've seen a couple of updates about on YT but didn't go into huge detail on the costs. I think I'm right in saying that Litchfields took it to use it as potential thing to offer customers but quickly realised it was too much work and costs and nobody would every do it again. Correct, and Ian Litchfield has since estimated the cost of the conversion to have been £60k plus, in his own words, he basically stopped counting at £60k … They did indeed undertake it as they thought there might be mileage in doing future conversions for customers, but Ian has since said they wouldn’t entertain doing another … As the Yanks would say “Go figure”. There are multiple issues in converting a non-DFi platform to run a DFi power train, non of them insurmountable, but the considerable labour required for such an undertaking isn’t cheap these days, nor are decent standalone ECU’s compatible with modern (ish) canbus systems, and that’s without the cost of having a custom loom made up, or the existing loom adapted. Porsche aren’t helping with massive price increases on their parts either … The exhaust was a pointless extravagance that JB wanted, and the cost of the exhaust could have been reduced drastically, by buying off the shelf componentry. It did seem like it would have been easier and cheaper to put a 996 GT3 engine in the car?

I think the reality of the matter is, unless you have an empty garage/workshop, along with the time, knowledge and the necessary skills, it’s easier just to buy a GT3 in the first place ! Whilst I totally get the adage “The journey is often better than the destination” if one considers the time taken to execute this type of conversion, and bear in mind the end result will only appeal to a very narrow demographic, hence the value of such a conversion will be heavily compromised.