I genuinely feel sorry for new 911 owners as they will never - Page 3 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

...get to drive a 'real' 911. I was offered a 24hr test-drive by my local Porsche Centre to experience a 992 Carrera S PDK. I have a 997 C4S and was looking forward to trying out the 992. It's a fantastic car but too large and 'GT' ish to be a true 911. No way one can hustle one down country lanes with confidence and enjoyment. The 911 has sadly become a Panamera Coupe. The visceral, nimble, lithe, raw sports car has gone. It's a shame that all the new owners will never know what it feels like to drive the 911 of the past. Most new owners won't care of course (and may just want the badge and all the modern comforts) and will think the car is wonderful - but the 911 'feel' only materialies at very high speeds and the right size of winding roads. Not really a rant... more an observation about how 911 now is a 911 in name only. Real shame.

964 & 993 owners will say the same about the 997. I think they call it the price of progress. All are 911's, though.

I hear you, but that's just where you are individually placed in the circle of evolution, say your are getting old without saying your getting old! I think 80's music is great, I don't much care for the 70's and 90's There will be 993 owners that think you are missing out g, G series owners that think the 993 crowd are missing out, etc, etc. It does seem a universal opinion that 997 might be the sweet spot however, so history could prove your point!

Why do some people assume the owner of a particular car doesn't own any other cars, have never driven anything else and never will.

Chris Peacock said: Why do some people assume the owner of a particular car doesn't own any other cars, have never driven anything else and never will. Good point! I suppose I mean new 911 owners who haven't owned previous generations of 911's. Even if they have, surely they must feel that the 911 has lost a lot in the interests of 'progress', modernisation and capturing extra market share (especially in the US).

30 + years ago I owned a lovely prussian blue 1986 Carrera Sport Targa, now I have a lovely Crayon 991 Turbo S Cab. I think you're talking nonsense personally so please don't feel sorry for me I've never been happier behind the wheel

I own a 2024 ‘911’, and largely agree that the latest generation cars are far removed from the original ‘911’ concept, but the nomenclature remains a clever marketing tool. I bought my first 911 in the late ‘80s, and then a new one every 2-3 years since - so each generation to the present - including some earlier, collectible and race models alongside. Each new model has added some improvements to target a broader customer base, but each has lost some DNA in the process. Personally I think the ‘real 911’ era ended with the air-cooled models, and there will always be one of these in my garage. Interestingly, 911s weren’t mainstream popular during that era. Many people (even on here) would not have bought a 911 at that time. That market preferred BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, Ferrari, and 911s were seen as a bit quirky, austere, tricky to drive, and less exotique than similar priced competitors.

pick whatever 911 you want and get AI text generator to justify your choice.... easy.... In my opinion the 964 is the last true 911. The styling and handling of the 964 capture the essence of what a 911 should be. The classic lines, the raw driving experience and the connection you feel with the car are unmatched by later cars. Many enthusiasts agree that the 964 represents the pinnacle of the 911’s evolution before it started to become more of a GT car. The newer models, while impressive in their own right, have lost some of that pure, unfiltered driving joy that the 964 offers. It’s not just nostalgia; it’s about the fundamental characteristics that define a 911. I’ve heard this sentiment echoed by many in the community, and it seems to be a universal opinion among those who have experienced the different generations. The 964 stands out as the last of its kind, a true driver’s car that embodies the spirit of the original 911.

wax lyrical said: ...get to drive a 'real' 911. I was offered a 24hr test-drive by my local Porsche Centre to experience a 992 Carrera S PDK. I have a 997 C4S and was looking forward to trying out the 992. It's a fantastic car but too large and 'GT' ish to be a true 911. No way one can hustle one down country lanes with confidence and enjoyment. The 911 has sadly become a Panamera Coupe. The visceral, nimble, lithe, raw sports car has gone. It's a shame that all the new owners will never know what it feels like to drive the 911 of the past. Most new owners won't care of course (and may just want the badge and all the modern comforts) and will think the car is wonderful - but the 911 'feel' only materialies at very high speeds and the right size of winding roads. Not really a rant... more an observation about how 911 now is a 911 in name only. Real shame. What do you expect from a automatic carrera S,Treat yourself to a gt3,its as nimble as my early car,its faster,has more grip,has better brakes,better gearbox etc,dont feel like a big car down B roads,you can feel the weight of it it though at 500kg heavier.

As an owner of a 997 C4S I can honestly say, great car though it is, if that is where you are planting your "real 911" flag then you are wide of the mark. I have been lucky enough to have had most generations and, if you want something to hustle down bumpy, narrow British roads then I would pick a 911 from the 70s. I had a 2.2s, but suspect a 2.4s would be better. Or even, budget allowing, a 2.7 RS Those are real 911s.

The doomongers banged this same drum when the 991 arrived...too big too heavy ugly blah blah and yet as we all know it morphed into the wonderful 991.2 which gave us the absolute sweetspot GT3 amongst others.

No, I am definitely not saying that the 997 is the pinnacle of '911ness' ( I haven't been fortunate enough to drive all the generations - especially pre-993) but more that the 992 is SO far removed from being a 911 it really should not be called a 911 anymore. It really does look and feel more like a Panamera Coupe. Each to their own though. Discombobulate said: As an owner of a 997 C4S I can honestly say, great car though it is, if that is where you are planting your "real 911" flag then you are wide of the mark. I have been lucky enough to have had most generations and, if you want something to hustle down bumpy, narrow British roads then I would pick a 911 from the 70s. I had a 2.2s, but suspect a 2.4s would be better. Or even, budget allowing, a 2.7 RS Those are real 911s.

I do think the size of the things did indeed take away much of what was the 911 experience previously, from 991.1 onwards. I was shocked at how far the 991.1 windscreen was away from my head when I first sat in one, and then drove it. But the engineering has gone from strength to strength - as much as I love a Metzger, have you heard a 991.2 or 992.2 GT3 giving it the beans? On another level. In fact the 997.2 might have been a bit of a low point for emotional connection (excluding the gt3), as that first switch to direct injection from the 997.1 stripped out much of the aural delight which they then fixed in the 991.1. But that had s t gen 1 electric steering. And so it continues....as in I think the history is more nuanced, over time some things get 'better', some get 'worse'. All highly subjective based on what the owner is looking for.

wax lyrical said:

wax lyrical said: ...get to drive a 'real' 911. I was offered a 24hr test-drive by my local Porsche Centre to experience a 992 Carrera S PDK. I have a 997 C4S and was looking forward to trying out the 992. It's a fantastic car but too large and 'GT' ish to be a true 911. No way one can hustle one down country lanes with confidence and enjoyment. The 911 has sadly become a Panamera Coupe. The visceral, nimble, lithe, raw sports car has gone. It's a shame that all the new owners will never know what it feels like to drive the 911 of the past. Most new owners won't care of course (and may just want the badge and all the modern comforts) and will think the car is wonderful - but the 911 'feel' only materialies at very high speeds and the right size of winding roads. Not really a rant... more an observation about how 911 now is a 911 in name only. Real shame. I would agree. I couldn’t believe the 991 or 992 after the 997. I don’t know if one is more real than another but the difference is stark. They dialled out nearly all the good things out of the 997.

I doubt the typical new Carrera owner ever 'hustles' their car anywhere anyway.

As a former owner of 964 , multiple 993 , multiple 997 cars I prefer the 992. Mine gets down the road just fine.

I had a 1967 SWB and now drive a 991.2 GTS. Very different cars but the lineage is still there.

Yawn

It’d probably cost me £100k + my current car (GR86) to get into a modern 911 I’d want, which I was pretty set on as a near-term goal but I do find myself questioning it. Obviously a far nicer place to sit but I do wonder if I could throw it about as much as I do the GR, would the size (and cost) be prohibitive? Is it really £100k more of driver enjoyment? Hmm

I mostly drive a Skoda Yeti. I don’t feel sorry for 992 owners.

Discombobulate said: As an owner of a 997 C4S I can honestly say, great car though it is, if that is where you are planting your "real 911" flag then you are wide of the mark. I have been lucky enough to have had most generations and, if you want something to hustle down bumpy, narrow British roads then I would pick a 911 from the 70s. I had a 2.2s, but suspect a 2.4s would be better. Or even, budget allowing, a 2.7 RS Those are real 911s. I would pick one with the engine in the middle.

IroningMan said: I would pick one with the engine in the middle. but others will tell you it's not a real Porsche.

wax lyrical said: ...get to drive a 'real' 911. I was offered a 24hr test-drive by my local Porsche Centre to experience a 992 Carrera S PDK. I have a 997 C4S and was looking forward to trying out the 992. It's a fantastic car but too large and 'GT' ish to be a true 911. No way one can hustle one down country lanes with confidence and enjoyment. The 911 has sadly become a Panamera Coupe. The visceral, nimble, lithe, raw sports car has gone. It's a shame that all the new owners will never know what it feels like to drive the 911 of the past. Most new owners won't care of course (and may just want the badge and all the modern comforts) and will think the car is wonderful - but the 911 'feel' only materialies at very high speeds and the right size of winding roads. Not really a rant... more an observation about how 911 now is a 911 in name only. Real shame. I've been lucky enough to use most iterations since the G30 and just my opinion of course but the 991 onwards became too GT and too little sportscar. Great GT cars but a step too removed from what I liked for a spirited drive. I've kept a 997 for this reason as it's refined enough to use whenever wherever but has sufficient feedback on the road to satisfy. Deeply impressive as the 992 car is especially as a base carrera to use daily it has lost a sparkle by being just too accomplished at going up a road.

wax lyrical said: It's a fantastic car but too large and 'GT' ish to be a true 911. No way one can hustle one down country lanes with confidence and enjoyment. But a 997 C4S has an identical width to a 992 Carrera S and is only 6cm (1.5%) shorter in length.

tbh i think Porsche themselves are aware of this development in the 911 and hence why they have further developed the Cayman to replace the small, nimble but now with powerful engine options for a/b road blast characteristics lost from the latest 911s. Ironically, the latest 911s are configured more mid-engined than the original pure rear engine design, so the 997 was the last of its kind from that point of view.

JurassicGTS said: but others will tell you it's not a real Porsche. It’s worse than that - with the money I saved I bought an electric car to go with it…

Heathwood said: I mostly drive a Skoda Yeti. I don’t feel sorry for 992 owners. My first car was a 1982 Skoda Estelle, and I think that is the closest I'll ever get to a 911 in fairness. The thought of a 992 seems lovely to me.

I feel sorry for new Honda Civic owners as they'll never get to drive an ek.

AllyM said: It’d probably cost me £100k + my current car (GR86) to get into a modern 911 I’d want, which I was pretty set on as a near-term goal but I do find myself questioning it. Obviously a far nicer place to sit but I do wonder if I could throw it about as much as I do the GR, would the size (and cost) be prohibitive? Is it really £100k more of driver enjoyment? Hmm In all honesty, I don't think it is a £100k more of driver enjoyment. I have a 992 GTS, my first Porsche which I bought brand new, fulfilled my dream in that sense for which I'm grateful. I've also recently bought a 981 Cayman 2.7 Manual to serve as my daily car, and honestly I'm really enjoying it. Is my 992 GTS 5 times better than the Cayman as the price dictates? No is the answer. Don't get me wrong, I love my 992, but the point I'm making is you can have just as much fun at a much cheaper price point. And I guess that's what you're doing in your GR86

wax lyrical said: ...get to drive a 'real' 911. I was offered a 24hr test-drive by my local Porsche Centre to experience a 992 Carrera S PDK. I have a 997 C4S and was looking forward to trying out the 992. It's a fantastic car but too large and 'GT' ish to be a true 911. No way one can hustle one down country lanes with confidence and enjoyment. The 911 has sadly become a Panamera Coupe. The visceral, nimble, lithe, raw sports car has gone. It's a shame that all the new owners will never know what it feels like to drive the 911 of the past. Most new owners won't care of course (and may just want the badge and all the modern comforts) and will think the car is wonderful - but the 911 'feel' only materialies at very high speeds and the right size of winding roads. Not really a rant... more an observation about how 911 now is a 911 in name only. Real shame. I keep reading this about the 992 being to large, it is the same width at the rear as the 997 C4s. People believe the press comments too much. They both are 1852mm wide. They do feel wider on the inside I will agree. Yes they are slightly longer too. But what do expect after 20 years. Name a me car that isn’t. But we are only talking 90mm longer.

People who are lucky enough to have driven the SWB or the LWB/Longhood (or whatever you want to call it) could say the same thing about a 997. Although I do agree with the OP I think the 992 at normal road speeds is pretty dull in base form. It feels more GT than sports car to me. Things change as the revs and speed climb but I think it has just tipped over the edge in to being a GT car as a Carrera.

Perception? Reality?

Looks like Ian McShanes 911 in Sexy Beast. Cool.

Orangecurry said: Perception? Reality? That’s not a 997 C4S that the op was commenting on. 993’s are considerably smaller than a 996/997. Like comparing a classic Mini, manufactured until late 90’s to a modern one.

Super Sonic said: I feel sorry for new Honda Civic owners as they'll never get to drive an ek. FD2 is high point, same era as 997.....it's a sweet spot

I feel terribly sorry for 992 GT3 owners, as all the go faster kit offers nothing under 100 mph and they have to put up with a lack of torque, whilst being shaken off every minor imperfection in the road surface. No wonder that they don’t get driven.

I feel sorry for those people with central heating. They don’t know what they’re missing, not having to chop logs in the freezing cold, and howling rain. Those were the days.

[Image-only or quote-only post; no author-written text.] https://www.pistonheads.com/inc/images/rofl.gif

I feel sorry for 911 owners, full stop.

RichT001 said: I feel sorry for those people with central heating. They don’t know what they’re missing, not having to chop logs in the freezing cold, and howling rain. Those were the days. Today's internet winner, bravo.

RichT001 said: I feel sorry for those people with central heating. They don’t know what they’re missing, not having to chop logs in the freezing cold, and howling rain. Those were the days. Good call. Rain starts tomorrow. I'm on it.

Rubbish. I've had 996, 997, 991 and 992. I'm also on my fourth Panamera. No 911 is anything like a Panamera - not worse, not better, just totally unequivocally different and therefore incomparable. The 992 to me feels like a more refined version of the 911, but clearly still feels like a 911 if we are benchmarking it to a 997. Less raw for sure, bigger (but still not 'big' and when comparing to a Panamera, it doesn't feel big), marginally less steering feel (but still great, although neither are exactly Mclaren quality), arguably not as well built but still very much 911. Absolutely nothing like a Panamera. Different variations might be the sweet spot for different people so totally understand someone preferring a 997 (personally my sweet spot is probably the 991).

...Ummm... not quite the same. RichT001 said: I feel sorry for those people with central heating. They don’t know what they’re missing, not having to chop logs in the freezing cold, and howling rain. Those were the days.

My 911 journey started with a 993 and has ended with my current 991.2 via a 997.2. The 991, a T, is just as characterful as the earlier ones but in different ways; in the lower gears it even reminds me of the sounds of the others. But the 991 is easier to live with: a great blend of agility and refinement, plus I don’t have to worry yet about serious rot that is costly to cure, and that’s after spending megabucks on a 993 or something earlier. I have to say I found the 992 a bit dull at UK road speeds, and besides I don’t like those lardy haunches.

Orangecurry said: RichT001 said: I feel sorry for those people with central heating. They don’t know what they’re missing, not having to chop logs in the freezing cold, and howling rain. Those were the days. Good call. Rain starts tomorrow. I'm on it.

Billy_Rosewood said: I feel sorry for 911 owners, full stop. Is that because they don't have a V8 in them?

Billy_Rosewood said: I feel sorry for 911 owners, full stop. I feel sorry for those who’ve not had the pleasure….

Cool story bro. Thesis would have been better if not compared to a 4WD 997 though

I 8 a 4RE said: Cool story bro. Thesis would have been better if not compared to a 4WD 997 though Indeed, I feel sorry for anyone who thinks a 4WD 911 of any iteration is the driving nirvana, nice though they are.

wax lyrical said: ...get to drive a 'real' 911. I was offered a 24hr test-drive by my local Porsche Centre to experience a 992 Carrera S PDK. I have a 997 C4S and was looking forward to trying out the 992. It's a fantastic car but too large and 'GT' ish to be a true 911. No way one can hustle one down country lanes with confidence and enjoyment. The 911 has sadly become a Panamera Coupe. The visceral, nimble, lithe, raw sports car has gone. It's a shame that all the new owners will never know what it feels like to drive the 911 of the past. Most new owners won't care of course (and may just want the badge and all the modern comforts) and will think the car is wonderful - but the 911 'feel' only materialies at very high speeds and the right size of winding roads. Not really a rant... more an observation about how 911 now is a 911 in name only. Real shame. One of the most cringe worthy posts I've seen on here. And that's not for lack of competition. Criticising those who can afford a nicer car while trying to convey that you're a more authentic proper driver, and dressing it up as benign concern for their well being. It's absolutely pathetic.

This is the driver engagement conversation in another guise right? Why the obsession about doing a paltry 60mph on near single lane grass lined roads with cyclists and blind bends, with almost no safety features. I think people with enough money to own a 992 at some point will have a look at the back catalogue and dismiss it or not. You seem to think these people aren’t enthusiasts, with one poster even saying that people don’t drive them fast. What a ridiculous assumption. I ring mines bloody neck at every opportunity that it’s safe to do so given I have the peaks on my doorstep and I certainly can use all the performance. Essentially generations subsequent to to the 993 should have been 4/5 the size, and nearly half the performance of the 992 is what the OP is suggesting. That would make it an odd shaped smart roadster-ish scale vehicle with less performance than your typical hot hatch - almost breathless actually in comparison. The interior would be much more analogue. It’s not a vehicle that would sell now given the vast number of alternatives… it’s not the 911 that’s changed, everything has changed. I say that, loving old 911s but not wanting to be a person that drives one. Too little dynamic performance and every day usability. You loved your youth, and you miss it. Who doesn’t, but don’t confuse that with the progress that’s been made being a bad thing, Everyone should just buy the 911 they want.

cerb4.5lee said: Billy_Rosewood said: I feel sorry for 911 owners, full stop. Is that because they don't have a V8 in them? That and the paperweight behind the rear wheels (J/k ofcourse! )

I genuinely feel sorry for the world when any kind of post on a car forum, that has no significance whatsoever, nor affect anyone's lives, can cause even the tiniest level of internet anger. (I can only imagine how angry the rest of the internet gets) But don't worry - Trump/Musk/Zuckerburg will sort everything out for you.

rainmaker2 said: This is the driver engagement conversation in another guise right? Why the obsession about doing a paltry 60mph on near single lane grass lined roads with cyclists and blind bends, with almost no safety features. I think people with enough money to own a 992 at some point will have a look at the back catalogue and dismiss it or not. You seem to think these people aren’t enthusiasts, with one poster even saying that people don’t drive them fast. What a ridiculous assumption. I ring mines bloody neck at every opportunity that it’s safe to do so given I have the peaks on my doorstep and I certainly can use all the performance. Essentially generations subsequent to to the 993 should have been 4/5 the size, and nearly half the performance of the 992 is what the OP is suggesting. That would make it an odd shaped smart roadster-ish scale vehicle with less performance than your typical hot hatch - almost breathless actually in comparison. The interior would be much more analogue. It’s not a vehicle that would sell now given the vast number of alternatives… it’s not the 911 that’s changed, everything has changed. I say that, loving old 911s but not wanting to be a person that drives one. Too little dynamic performance and every day usability. You loved your youth, and you miss it. Who doesn’t, but don’t confuse that with the progress that’s been made being a bad thing, Everyone should just buy the 911 they want. I do agree with your points about each iteration being a product of the time that it’s in. This must be true. It’s great that you’re able to use all of the performance, but I’m sure that majority rarely need to utilise much car control at all in a 992, even when they’re far over the speed limit. They’re still good fun, but it’s not seat of your pants stuff.

Grantstown said: I do agree with your points about each iteration being a product of the time that it’s in. This must be true. It’s great that you’re able to use all of the performance, but I’m sure that majority rarely need to utilise much car control at all in a 992, even when they’re far over the speed limit. They’re still good fun, but it’s not seat of your pants stuff. How do you know that? I've read reviews that suggest otherwise.

I don't think the 997 was that raw particularly

Grantstown said: rainmaker2 said: This is the driver engagement conversation in another guise right? Why the obsession about doing a paltry 60mph on near single lane grass lined roads with cyclists and blind bends, with almost no safety features. I think people with enough money to own a 992 at some point will have a look at the back catalogue and dismiss it or not. You seem to think these people aren’t enthusiasts, with one poster even saying that people don’t drive them fast. What a ridiculous assumption. I ring mines bloody neck at every opportunity that it’s safe to do so given I have the peaks on my doorstep and I certainly can use all the performance. Essentially generations subsequent to to the 993 should have been 4/5 the size, and nearly half the performance of the 992 is what the OP is suggesting. That would make it an odd shaped smart roadster-ish scale vehicle with less performance than your typical hot hatch - almost breathless actually in comparison. The interior would be much more analogue. It’s not a vehicle that would sell now given the vast number of alternatives… it’s not the 911 that’s changed, everything has changed. I say that, loving old 911s but not wanting to be a person that drives one. Too little dynamic performance and every day usability. You loved your youth, and you miss it. Who doesn’t, but don’t confuse that with the progress that’s been made being a bad thing, Everyone should just buy the 911 they want. I do agree with your points about each iteration being a product of the time that it’s in. This must be true. It’s great that you’re able to use all of the performance, but I’m sure that majority rarely need to utilise much car control at all in a 992, even when they’re far over the speed limit. They’re still good fun, but it’s not seat of your pants stuff. Sport plus on means little to no driver aids, and everything happening a lot faster. This is what modern engineering has brought… one minute it’s a golf with a wet mode, next minute it can do a Nurburgring lap within 25 seconds of a gt3.

992 owner here (after owning a few older 911). They are big GT cars with an incredible wide band of talent which you need to track to find out fully. However I also have an Elise 250Cup. No power steering, fabulous steering feel, manual, limited driver aids, fun as ordinary road speed, tiny compared to modern cars (just about all cars!) and fabulous handling. My alternative to a old Porsche. Any completely reliable.

No, definitely not saying that the 997 C4S is the epitome of '911ness' - it's just what I currently own and could compare the 992 against. The base C2S is more 'pure' and the GT3 obviously in a league of its own. But after the 997, the 911 DNA was substantially diluted. Arguably, the 996 was slightly better to drive (I had one for 9 years). Smaller wheels helped in the handling and ride department. Sensitive 991 and 992 owners who are getting upset should just enjoy their cars and not bother to read this thread. Blue62 said: I 8 a 4RE said: Cool story bro. Thesis would have been better if not compared to a 4WD 997 though Indeed, I feel sorry for anyone who thinks a 4WD 911 of any iteration is the driving nirvana, nice though they are.

WCZ said: NRG1976 said: Unless you have a turbo, GTS or GT3 you would be better off with a m3 - the cooking Carreras offer nothing special really in terms of drive, albeit they look nice. agreed Totally disagree. Yes, the Turbos (had 1) and GT3s (had 3) have distinct characters - that appeal to some, but not all. The mainstream Base/T/S/GTS models are widely regarded as the best in their class for ‘real world’ everyday use, and many have a ‘soft spot’ for the simplicity of the base C2 models. Shame that the manual box is now limited to only the T.

Geneve said: Totally disagree. Yes, the Turbos (had 1) and GT3s (had 3) have distinct characters - that appeal to some, but not all. The mainstream Base/T/S/GTS models are widely regarded as the best in their class for ‘real world’ everyday use, and many have a ‘soft spot’ for the simplicity of the base C2 models. Shame that the manual box is now limited to only the T. This. Most car hacks love a base spec 911 too. For good reason.

Grantstown said: NRG1976 said: Beauty is subjective, but this is a 911 forum and the OP is nothing to do with BMW. Yes it is a 911 thread but it doesn't stop the F80 M3CS being a very nice car and in some ways could even be an alternative to a base Carrera. A rawer experience than the new M3 x drive, I loved mine while I had it and only sold it to help fund my 992 GT3.

Discombobulate said: This. Most car hacks love a base spec 911 too. For good reason. You can add Porsche engineers to that.

Grantstown said: NRG1976 said: Beauty is subjective, but this is a 911 forum and the OP is nothing to do with BMW. Yes it is a 911 thread but it doesn't stop the F80 M3CS being a very nice car and in some ways could even be an alternative to a base Carrera. A rawer experience than the new M3 x drive, I loved mine while I had it and only sold it to help fund my 992 GT3.

Blue62 said: Discombobulate said: This. Most car hacks love a base spec 911 too. For good reason. You can add Porsche engineers to that. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=scXXhmknySA&pp=ygUTRnJhbmNoaXR0aSA5MTEgdiBtNA%3D%3D It’s 10 years since the little cooking Carrera, which at that time only came with a puny 3.4 cayman engine showed the newly turbocharged M3 the difference between a sports car and a sporty version of a car. The driving experience reflects this. If I was going M3, I’d have the E46.

I had a 997 Turbo which I only kept a few months because I found it boring to drive. I’ve still got my 993 manual coupe after 13 years and drive it regularly - that said a 993 in stock factory spec is also a bit ‘GT’ and boring to drive- but a trip to Centre Gravity soon transformed the steering feel and handling….. Like many I have no interest in a 992- too big and mundane -unless it’s a GT3!

Grantstown said: Blue62 said: Discombobulate said: This. Most car hacks love a base spec 911 too. For good reason. You can add Porsche engineers to that. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=scXXhmknySA&pp=ygUTRnJhbmNoaXR0aSA5MTEgdiBtNA%3D%3D It’s 10 years since the little cooking Carrera, which at that time only came with a puny 3.4 cayman engine showed the newly turbocharged M3 the difference between a sports car and a sporty version of a car. The driving experience reflects this. If I was going M3, I’d have the E46. Power without control is nothing. We are sold horsepower as the basis for buying a sport car and yet time and time again it is demonstrated to us that control translates into real world greater driving pleasure. You can barely use 400HP on the road so anything over (assuming a sub 1500 KG weight) becomes unusable and unsafe power to control ratios. It is the reason the lower power Porsches are more enjoyable. I say this having come from a 600HP Merc which is not a touch on my 400HP Porsche for sheer driving pleasure, control and overall safety.

Standard carrera - can someone explain to me what makes them so good? I’ve had multiple and they are just boring imho, linear power delivery and not really quick, where does the excitement come from? I’d rather have an Emira all day long.

I would argue that 4WD doesn't belong on a 911, or even a sports car in general

NRG1976 said: Standard carrera - can someone explain to me what makes them so good? I’ve had multiple and they are just boring imho, linear power delivery and not really quick, where does the excitement come from? I’d rather have an Emira all day long. Do they work?

Olivera said: I would argue that 4WD doesn't belong on a 911, or even a sports car in general I have to agree with you....the purity of the handling is taken away with 4WD.......until you hit a greasy patch.

FrancisA said: Olivera said: I would argue that 4WD doesn't belong on a 911, or even a sports car in general I have to agree with you....the purity of the handling is taken away with 4WD.......until you hit a greasy patch. Lamborghini clearly disagree with you.

NDA said: FrancisA said: Olivera said: I would argue that 4WD doesn't belong on a 911, or even a sports car in general I have to agree with you....the purity of the handling is taken away with 4WD.......until you hit a greasy patch. Lamborghini clearly disagree with you. You missed the tongue in cheek........."until you hit a greasy patch"

wax lyrical said: ...get to drive a 'real' 911. I was offered a 24hr test-drive by my local Porsche Centre to experience a 992 Carrera S PDK. I have a 997 C4S and was looking forward to trying out the 992. It's a fantastic car but too large and 'GT' ish to be a true 911. No way one can hustle one down country lanes with confidence and enjoyment. The 911 has sadly become a Panamera Coupe. The visceral, nimble, lithe, raw sports car has gone. It's a shame that all the new owners will never know what it feels like to drive the 911 of the past. Most new owners won't care of course (and may just want the badge and all the modern comforts) and will think the car is wonderful - but the 911 'feel' only materialies at very high speeds and the right size of winding roads. Not really a rant... more an observation about how 911 now is a 911 in name only. Real shame. I agree All you kettle drivers dont know what your missing compared to a real air cooled 911 on torsion bars. And of course, the last real 911 with a 911 chassis code was made in 1989 Edited by Gary C on Tuesday 28th January 20:02

FrancisA said: Olivera said: I would argue that 4WD doesn't belong on a 911, or even a sports car in general I have to agree with you....the purity of the handling is taken away with 4WD.......until you hit a greasy patch. I’m going to sit in the corner and cry all day because you guys don’t think my 991.2 Carrera 4 GTS is a worthy sports car Rear axle steer PDK Turbos All seem to be on everyone’s hate list . Not to mention the centre locks and PCCB . If I want fear , I take wifeys S2000 out for a. “ spin “ Edited by Busa mav on Tuesday 28th January 22:51

Owning a 992, a 996 and a 73' 911 T (210bhp) RS rep I couldn't disagree more. One is a toy, one is a car and one is a mixture of the two. They are all excellent. Out of the three, the 992 has been used the most over the last 5 years, having completed 70,000 perfect miles with 0-60 in 3.6 seconds and 32 mpg. The 911T is almost as quick as the 996, however is prone to a bit of engine maintenance as you would expect, but very special in its own way. Spends most of its time tucked up in bed at this time of the year. The 996 is the bargain 911 at the monument. 325 bhp and a manual gearbox make it really shift. They drive beautifully, potent. We sold a Panamera 2 years ago that was a 16 plate. We had over 60,000 miles on it. No similarity whatsoever to the 992. The 992 is just the best car I have every purchased. I can get 2g corners, 178mph at Le Mans and the speed was still rising pretty quickly. I am about to get into it and drive to Essex right now. I will get around 32mpg. I think the 992 is a classic already. As for the weight the 992 is 1,496kgs. I weighed it. The 992 C2,1,430kg. Whats everyone banging on about?.

BuyaDuster said: Owning a 992, a 996 and a 73' 911 T (210bhp) RS rep I couldn't disagree more. One is a toy, one is a car and one is a mixture of the two. They are all excellent. Out of the three, the 992 has been used the most over the last 5 years, having completed 70,000 perfect miles with 0-60 in 3.6 seconds and 32 mpg. The 911T is almost as quick as the 996, however is prone to a bit of engine maintenance as you would expect, but very special in its own way. Spends most of its time tucked up in bed at this time of the year. The 996 is the bargain 911 at the monument. 325 bhp and a manual gearbox make it really shift. They drive beautifully, potent. We sold a Panamera 2 years ago that was a 16 plate. We had over 60,000 miles on it. No similarity whatsoever to the 992. The 992 is just the best car I have every purchased. I can get 2g corners, 178mph at Le Mans and the speed was still rising pretty quickly. I am about to get into it and drive to Essex right now. I will get around 32mpg. I think the 992 is a classic already. As for the weight the 992 is 1,496kgs. I weighed it. The 992 C2,1,430kg. Whats everyone banging on about?. That’s all well and good, but have you tried a 997 C4, apparently the pinnacle On a serious note i have thought of adding a 996 to the stable again, how are the maintenance costs these days on them?

...there are a lot of very sensitive and thin-skinned 991 and 992 owners on here! My 997 happens to be a C4S. I never said this was the pinnacle of '911-ness'. The 992 (base) isn't a bad 911, but it has lost a lot of what made a 911 so great. That's just a fact, not an opinion. Enjoy your cars but it's futile arguing otherwise.

This bun fight still going on.

Those poor b ds slumming it up in their new 911s, I pity them. Edited by Stella Tortoise on Wednesday 29th January 17:33

....oh no it isn't.

wax lyrical said: ...there are a lot of very sensitive and thin-skinned 991 and 992 owners on here! My 997 happens to be a C4S. I never said this was the pinnacle of '911-ness'. The 992 (base) isn't a bad 911, but it has lost a lot of what made a 911 so great. That's just a fact, not an opinion. Enjoy your cars but it's futile arguing otherwise. This could apply to every modern iteration of a classic/older car. Modern cars are a very different driving proposition that some will prefer and others will not. Stop trying to be so divisive, it just makes you look like a a plonker

CaptainSensib1e said: This could apply to every modern iteration of a classic/older car. Modern cars are a very different driving proposition that some will prefer and others will not. Stop trying to be so divisive, it just makes you look like a a plonker It’s a bizarre thread, set up to antagonise but who knows why, or cares. Ultimately someone with a limited exposure to 911’s think they know best, let him get on with it while he probably saves up for a second hand 992, no doubt a purer version with 4WD, after all they’re ’real 911’s’, whoever knew?

wax lyrical said: The 992 (base) isn't a bad 911, but it has lost a lot of what made a 911 so great. That's just a fact, not an opinion. Is that your opinion?

av185 said: wax lyrical said: The 992 (base) isn't a bad 911, but it has lost a lot of what made a 911 so great. That's just a fact, not an opinion. Is that your opinion? Or a ‘fact’?

av185 said: wax lyrical said: The 992 (base) isn't a bad 911, but it has lost a lot of what made a 911 so great. That's just a fact, not an opinion. Is that your opinion? Apparently it’s fact, until he eventually buys a 992 and then that will be the best car Porsche ever made. We all know the type, unfortunately.

av185 said: Is that your opinion? That question may be an intellectual challenge too far, don’t waste your time.

I have refrained from commenting on this but I kind of get where the original poster is coming from. I have a mk1 golf gti campaign and a mk4 golf gti. I genuinely feel sorry for mk4 owners as they will never experience the rawness fun factor that you dont get with the mk4!

stichill99 said: I have refrained from commenting on this but I kind of get where the original poster is coming from. I have a mk1 golf gti campaign and a mk4 golf gti. I genuinely feel sorry for mk4 owners as they will never experience the rawness fun factor that you dont get with the mk4! Christ almighty, do you light a candle for them every night? Maybe set up a crowd fund to buy them all a Mk1 and save them from themselves, this just gets weirder.

Orangecurry said: ....oh no it isn't. Oh yes it is! He’s behind you!!

rob.kellock said: He’s behind you!! The powerfully built company director?

rob.kellock said: Orangecurry said: ....oh no it isn't. Oh yes it is! He’s behind you!! No, the engine is behind you!

In the immortal words of Arsene Wenger....”everyone thinks their wife is the most beautiful"

BuyaDuster said: Owning a 992, a 996 and a 73' 911 T (210bhp) RS rep I couldn't disagree more. One is a toy, one is a car and one is a mixture of the two. They are all excellent. Out of the three, the 992 has been used the most over the last 5 years, having completed 70,000 perfect miles with 0-60 in 3.6 seconds and 32 mpg. The 911T is almost as quick as the 996, however is prone to a bit of engine maintenance as you would expect, but very special in its own way. Spends most of its time tucked up in bed at this time of the year. The 996 is the bargain 911 at the monument. 325 bhp and a manual gearbox make it really shift. They drive beautifully, potent. We sold a Panamera 2 years ago that was a 16 plate. We had over 60,000 miles on it. No similarity whatsoever to the 992. The 992 is just the best car I have every purchased. I can get 2g corners, 178mph at Le Mans and the speed was still rising pretty quickly. I am about to get into it and drive to Essex right now. I will get around 32mpg. I think the 992 is a classic already. As for the weight the 992 is 1,496kgs. I weighed it. The 992 C2,1,430kg. Whats everyone banging on about?. That is an impressive use of the 992 averaging 14K miles a year. I think all us 911 owners have a lesson to learn here. They are mean't to be driven.

Blue62 said: stichill99 said: I have refrained from commenting on this but I kind of get where the original poster is coming from. I have a mk1 golf gti campaign and a mk4 golf gti. I genuinely feel sorry for mk4 owners as they will never experience the rawness fun factor that you dont get with the mk4! Christ almighty, do you light a candle for them every night? Maybe set up a crowd fund to buy them all a Mk1 and save them from themselves, this just gets weirder. I was taking the piss

stichill99 said: I was taking the piss Too subtle for one so triggered! Apologies and hats off sir, excellent effort, I’ll have my parrot served cold.

stichill99 said: I have refrained from commenting on this but I kind of get where the original poster is coming from. I have a mk1 golf gti campaign and a mk4 golf gti. I genuinely feel sorry for mk4 owners as they will never experience the rawness fun factor that you dont get with the mk4! Blasphemy, my first car was a trusty Mk4 Golf and I will never have anyone speak ill of the marque!

I genuinely feel sorry for people who live in 6 bed detached houses instead of 1 bed flats. No way one can hustle down the house with confidence and enjoyment - there's stairs, multiple rooms, it's just too big. The visceral, nimble, lithe, raw feeling of the 1 bed flat has gone. It's a shame that all the new owners will never know what it feels like to live like that. Most new owners won't care of course (and may just want the large driveway and the double garage) and will think the house is wonderful - but the raw 'feel' only materialies when you're bumping into furniture and have no space.

c3m said: I genuinely feel sorry for people who live in 6 bed detached houses instead of 1 bed flats. No way one can hustle down the house with confidence and enjoyment - there's stairs, multiple rooms, it's just too big. Apart from the fact that you are about a week late to the party, you do realise that 'downsizing' is a thing with housing? But absolutely 50% of the posters are right with you, and 50% are probably not.

I genuinely feel sorry for those who have never experienced a snug pair of 1970's style Y fronts or Speedos. These guys walking about with all that extra weight and excess material slowing progress in trouser deployment/attainment, or speed of slipping round the corners of the pool to the bar unencumbered by all the modern safety features like pockets or inner lining don't know what they're missing.

Orangecurry said: Apart from the fact that you are about a week late to the party, you do realise that 'downsizing' is a thing with housing? But absolutely 50% of the posters are right with you, and 50% are probably not. Precisely. In exactly the same way that there is frustration at the growing size and complexity of the ‘911’, many people don’t want a bigger house or more complex life.

c3m said: I genuinely feel sorry for people who live in 6 bed detached houses instead of 1 bed flats. No way one can hustle down the house with confidence and enjoyment - there's stairs, multiple rooms, it's just too big. The visceral, nimble, lithe, raw feeling of the 1 bed flat has gone. It's a shame that all the new owners will never know what it feels like to live like that. Most new owners won't care of course (and may just want the large driveway and the double garage) and will think the house is wonderful - but the raw 'feel' only materialies when you're bumping into furniture and have no space.

Koln-RS said: Orangecurry said: Apart from the fact that you are about a week late to the party, you do realise that 'downsizing' is a thing with housing? But absolutely 50% of the posters are right with you, and 50% are probably not. Precisely. In exactly the same way that there is frustration at the growing size and complexity of the ‘911’, many people don’t want a bigger house or more complex life. Tbh a huge house has never interested me, I’d rather 3 bed, contemporary well designed house on a plot of land than one of those terrible mock (insert what you will) 6 bed monsters that you find in ‘posh’ developments with a 5‘ strip of grass all round that they call a garden. I’m ok with the whole 911 range to present but I do worry on the complexity and possible issues that could result in the newer stuff. Edited by Youforreal. on Thursday 30th January 11:31

Electronicpants said: I genuinely feel sorry for those who have never experienced a snug pair of 1970's style Y fronts or Speedos. These guys walking about with all that extra weight and excess material slowing progress in trouser deployment/attainment, or speed of slipping round the corners of the pool to the bar unencumbered by all the modern safety features like pockets or inner lining don't know what they're missing.

Never is a very long word when the solution is so simple .... maybe it says something about the scribe ...

ChrisW. said: Never is a very long word when the solution is so simple .... maybe it says something about the scribe ... Worth responding to your point because it’s a truism. This is yet another chippy thread on the Porsche section of PH, I’m not sure if it was always like this but there’s some limited entertainment value, though zero substance.