Time Sensitive Question--Overrev issue

Just had the used CS I am looking at check at the dealer. I don't have all of the numbers, but there were maybe 380 hits in range 3 and 200 hits in range 4 (plus, of course, more in the lower ranges). The dealer I spoke with (who won't be the servicing dealer) said as long as there aren't any hits in ranges 5 and 6, no problem in terms of engine warranty. Previous posts on this board suggest differently. Comments? Thanks--Scott

Here is a recreation of a document given to me by a Tech at a local Porsche dealership. Yes, this is real. He said this applied to the Cayman as well and was given to them during training on diagnosis issues: -- There are several stages of imminent disintegration for the new 997s that will be evident in the log print out. RPM Ranges: 1 - RPM Achieved 7300 to 7500 Likely Result Oh, behave Abuse 2 - RPM Achieved 7500 to 7700 Likely Result Ooooh! Abuse 3 - RPM Achieved 7700 to 7900 Likely Result Ouch! Abuse 4 - RPM Achieved 7900 to 8400 Likely Result Dammit! Did you here something pop too? Possible Damage 5 - RPM Achieved 8400 to 9500 Likely Result I’ve been hit! I am losing power! Definite damage 6 - RPM Achieved 9500 to 11000 Likely Result Live grenade! Take Cover! Going, going, gone! -- The tech told me that Zone 1 and 2 will not likely effect warranty, but Zone 3 and above certainly would. I had my car tested and after multiple track days and hard driving I had zero Zone 3 and above hits. YMMV.

You should talk to PCA-TECH about this (first off he can clear those for you so that your ECU would be clear). As I understand it, Porsche only raises warranty objections for the top two tiers unless there is some other obvious sign of abuse. Nearly all cars will have over-revs in ranges 1 and 2 if the owner has ever bumped the rev limiter, some may even have range 3 over revs. Of course the amount of time the engine spent in that stage is also important. I'm pretty sure these are engine revolutions, so a car with 200 revolutions in range 4 probably means it missed a single downshift as an engine turning 7800rpms would be turning what 130 rotations per second so it spent 1-1/2 seconds in that range. Is that enough to do engine damage? Likely not. Our engines will take punishment up to almost 8500 rpm on a fairly regular basis, certainly more than 1-1/2 seconds worth of missed shift. The ECU also records when this happens in terms of total hours of engine life so you can sometimes backtrack to a specific event that caused it by zeroing in on when it occured. I'm willing to bet that nearly everyone here has over revs in some range, some higher than others. The question comes down to warranty. Is the dealer raising any warranty issues over these over-revs? If not, then you should be fine and as I said you can clear them out of your ECU and "feel" better about it if you want. BTW the 380 revolutions in stage 3 were likely from the same event and recorded those revolutions on the way up and the way down, again a few seconds worth of time in that range and I doubt anything to be concerned about.

PS. Send me those PCCB's for the advice.

I polled techs at 3 dealers. One said no issue (with either the engine or warranty). One said that it would raise a red flag, but not necessarily be grounds for a warranty claim denial. One had no experience with overrevs on any cars. Sounds like a grey area, and in general probably OK. It is the probably and almost 60 grand that don't fit so well together for me. K-Man S--looks like your PCCB's could be in jeopardy.

Where you talking to "techs" or service writers? There is a real large difference in the knowledge. You could always call Porsche of America.

Techs--the service writers didn't know. Trying PoA is an interesting thought--my previous experience going "up the ladder" for this type of information hasn't been good, though.

Scotty why not buy the car and clear the over-revs? Then there is nothing for the dealership to point to and raise a fuss about. Get that mailing label ready...

Hypothetical question. What if you missed a shift and did damage to the engine...then cleared the ECU and tried to get it covered under warranty. Would this be considered fraud? Would Porsche not suspect anything with it totally clear? Where do you draw the line?

Doesn't a Porsche dealer have to clear the DME? And if they do, isn't that logged under the VIN? Or is there a back alley way to clear it?

No some DME's could be totally clear, obviously more mile is greater chance but YES that would be fraud if your missed shift caused damage that you tried to get them to fix for free under warranty. There are ways of clearing the over-revs without it being logged or showing up in any way. The Porsche dealership isn't required to clear them, I've seen situations where they have and where they haven't.

I think the point I am making is that if you clear the overrevs, this may be considered fraud? Only porsche can judge if what orgininally was there was a problem or not. You would essentially be erasing data points that they intended to be there. Could porsche even void your warrantly if they had knowledge that you cleared your ECU (provided the could prove this, which they probably cannot)? Just seems suspect to me. Why do you even want them cleared. If they are a problem and you clear it, then its fraud. If they are not a problem, then the point is moot. K-Man, but you are the lawyer so as good of a source as any.

I wonder if I could talk a tech into clearing the DME history based on wanting it reflect just "my" driving?

ScottyF, My understanding is that if you purchase the software Ken is referring to you can clear it yourself as many times as you want or ethically feel is correct. See: http://www.planet-9.com/news-items/13919-snap-flash-ecu-tuning-softronic-caymanclub-net.html

Clearing engine history registers is the same as rolling back an odometer, ethically. Dealerships should not be doing it either. PAG should set up its hardware so that both overrev and odometer are increment-only registers. Maintaining integrity across module replacements is tricky but possible.

That's exactly what I'm saying, you want it to reflect what you've done or not done to the car. The legal area depends on the laws of your state. For example you sell a house that has had termites in most states (maybe all) you have to disclose that, it is MATERIAL as judged by the laws of that state. The fact your kids spilled some kool-aid on the carpet in the family room and you used bleach to clean it out and the bleach may have weakened the carpet fibers likely doesn't have to be disclosed, it isn't material. So the question from a legal standpoint is the erasing of the logged over-revs erasing something material or not? In my opinion, if the over-revs are not great in number as a % of the engine life (which in your example they clearly are not) or the over-revs were not responsible for any engine damage (and again in your case there isn't any damage) then clearing them is likely to be legally sound. Whether you have a moral problem with it is really up to the individual. Does anyone here think that a 1973 Porsche 911 RS records over-revs? No. But I can bet you that most of them probably have been over-revd at some point in their lives. BTW, if this car has been on a PIWIS machine, which is sounds like it has, then PCNA already has a record of the over-revs in their files, and clearing them on the car isn't going to deceive them, they could pull your master file at any time. Next time you are looking at a PIWIS note the 802.11 aircard in the top of it. Guess where that wireless card is sending your car's information. I would tell the dealer just that - "Hey I didn't do those over-revs, I want them cleared so I can start fresh"

What they are tied to is the number of hours the engine has been running, not the number of miles driven.

The problem is that the user owner cannot decide if the overrevs are "bad" or "good". If Porshce clearly stated what was "bad" and what was "good" it would be ethically possible to erase or not erase, but quite simply we do not know. It would be nice if Porsche would erase them if you are the new owner though. But that is up to them. No matter how you slice it, unless we are told by Porsche (in writing) that we can do it our car, I feel there is a bit of a problem. This being said, it would really be nice to hear a legal statement saying that it is OK for us to flash the ECU of overrevs...then no problem. Has anyone actually asked Porsche what would happen if they do this?

Is that an increment-only, legal odometer type deal? For that matter, can the odometer be reset, or set to an arbitrary value, using PIWIS? How far down the rabbit hole can one go here..

I believe the warranty is independent of the owner and therefore assignment of the overrevs to either you or the prior owner is irrelevant. If, for your own knowledge, you want to know what amount of the recorded overrevs are a result of your use then take a photo of the screen, or write down the data, as discovered during your pre-purchase inspection. IMO, any attempt to hide, disguise, and/or erase data from Porsche constitutes an intent to deceive and is therefore fraudulent. It does not matter who caused the potential damage.

Thought I'd add another data point. I called PoA. I know this information is only as good as the rep I spoke with, but here is the summary of the call. 1) All overrevs are red flags. 2) Overrevs at the low end of the range are typical not an issue, overrevs at the upper end of the range always are. 3) There are no hard and fast rules (disclosed to me, anyway) about the middle of the range. The rep insinuated that coverage decsions are made on a case by case basis at the regional level. In any case, there are a lot of car choices out there, esp. right now, so I am passing on this particular car. K-Man S--sorry man, no PCCB trade.

I would imagine certified pre-owned might change that, since warranty coverage is effectively reset. The certification and the warranty are both administered by PCNA. Yeah that's pretty much where I'm coming from.

I side with you guys and honestly I have wondered about the validity of clearing the ECU with the new product. Its great that we CAN do that, but SHOULD we?

I don't have all of the numbers, but there were maybe 380 hits in range 3 and 200 hits in range 4 (plus, of course, more in the lower ranges). The dealer I spoke with (who won't be the servicing dealer) said as long as there aren't any hits in ranges 5 and 6, no problem in terms of engine warranty. The "hits" are actually ignitions. So at 8K RPM you would have 12,000 ignitions in a minute or 200 in a sec. The overrev ignitions are cumulative. Although I didn't get it in writing, a Porsche factory Rep told me that range 4 and above are considered to be technically overrevs by the factory. You accumulate range1 overrevs when you bounce off the rev limiter, and these are of no concern. I would not buy a car with range 4 or higher overrevs.

Exactly. According to PCA Panorama magazine, EVERY Porsche Service Department has a dedicated T3 line and the PIWIS machine is connected to Porsche HQ in Germany. Each time you're hooked to the PIWIS, the machine communicates all your info to HQ, INCLUDING OVERREVS and full throttle hits, among other information. So, unless you're cleared this info BEFORE it gets read by PIWIS, Porsche already knows about it. And, if it gets cleared AFTER a PIWIS interogation, then HQ knows someone has messed with it! Greg

It actually said "dedicated T3 line" in the article I saw in Pano, but agree either way, Herr Porsche knows what happens to his cars....

So now the question becomes "would you buy a used Porsche that had this installed"?

Has what installed? The broader question is: A) Do these over-revs even matter? B) How would you know a car's complete history without getting the master files from PAG? I really think people are making a lot of noise about nothing. Every day I see cars going for big dollars at places like Barrett Jackson and you better believe that 99% of the cars at one of those auctions doesn't even have the capability to store over revs so how are you going to know if that supposedly mint AC Cobra has floated a valve or not? Ok now I'll answer the questions for you: A) No they don't matter, either something is wrong with the engine or it isn't. At best you can look at over revs and say "Hmmm this engine turned some revolutions in that RPM range, those revolutions may or may not have done any damage to this engine." That's it. Period. Over-revs say NOTHING conclusive about an engine or its health. An oil drip could be an indication of a car with a blown motor, or it could be an indication that the last person who changed the oil did a sloppy job, how would you know? A garage floor drip meter? No. You'd inspect it further if you suspected some damage. In this case it is simple, if there are no codes for misfires in the ECU and no other indication of any problems whatsoever then these over revs are meaningless. B) You don't know, and in fact some things can be hidden from PAG. Sure if I inspected a car and over revs were indicated I'd ask the prior owner if I could "do you know how it happened?" to which if they answered - "yeah I missed a shift once" then ok, that sort of thing happens, not a big deal, again if all other indications are that this engine is healthy that the car is fine then what does it really matter what the over rev counter says if Porsche says it will honor the warranty? Nothing, zip zilch. Complete history? Have you been satellite tracking this car from day one piping a live feed of all ECU and OBDII data to a central computer? Do you have video feeds of everywhere this car was parked? Really it starts to get absurd at times, it really does. The best you can do is look at some indicators and determine for yourself whether or not something is an issue. Heck I knew someone once who wouldn't buy a car because it had scuffs on the door sills, what that was an indicator of I don't know.... I'm sorry but there is no black and white here folks.

Probably the wrong thread to discuss this but I'm wondering why anyone would want to "hide" over-revs. Why is that a feature of the Softronic? Just curious.

Very interesting thread. Sorry if it's a stupid question but what is PIWIS?

See our faqs at http://www.planet-9.com/faq.php?faq=miscellan#faq_acro PIWIS Porsche Integrated Workshop Information System (diagnostic tester)

Santa Fe, I think you are mistaken. What PCA-TECH said was that his software "could" remove over-revs, not that it has to. I flashed with it and my level 1 and 2 over-revs are still there. Both caused by banging against the rev limiter btw, not any missed shifts. Up to the individual whether or not they want to wipe out their over-revs and start clean or not.

Yes, I couldn't keep up with all of that but I did think it was an "automatic" process.

No, the default is to NOT touch the over-revs, however, if the owners desires it, PCA-TECH could give them a file that would properly clear the over-revs but unless the owner requests it, the file isn't going to touch the over-revs. Back the the original question at hand: Scotty, if there are no signs of any damage to the engine, no misfire codes or fluids mixing with each other or anything like that to indicate a problem and Porsche is going to continue to cover the car under warranty then I think you are perfectly safe to buy this car. If there are other reasons why you don't want it, color, options, price, etc. then don't buy the car. However, I would not hinge your buying decision on the presence of these over-revs. If I as looking for a Cayman and it had what I wanted and someone showed me those over revs I would make sure there were no codes, funny sounds from the engine, fluid problems, etc. and if everything was fine I'd buy the car, I wouldn't hesitate to at all. Something else would have to be wrong for me to not buy the car, just the over revs alone are not enough to make the car "bad".