Am I nuts? 2003 C2 with 130k

As the title states, looking at an 03 manual coupe with 131K on it near Cleveland, OH. Can't post a link because it's wholesale. -Clean reports (carfax/autocheck) -Wholesale test drive noted no clutch problems or shift issues (However, they only drive it through the gears up to 40mph). Older clutch replacement 10 years ago noted on reports. -Guards red and paint looks good: no major paint issues, may have been resprayed/blended at some point but no "subpar repair" inspection notes. I did note overspray on a sticker in the engine bay.... however no thickness readings, no idea what's original or if that matters at this price point -Photos look good, cleaner than most wholesale cars, no pixelation that I could see, interior in good nick, headlights look to need very mild polish but not yellow, tail lights aren't cracked, etc. -Engine recording (AI audio analysis provided with each auction) didn't note any anomalies, nor did my ears. Engine appeared to have no start issues. -no major signs of corrosion or leaks from under shot photos with it being in Ohio/Michigan area -I'm almost certain it is the original IMS; no records and the dealer didn't know. -NO paper trail..... service records are the notes provided by the reports. Sucks, but the case 99% of the time with these older dealer cars -Only "mod" I see is ugly aftermarket wheels that I would replace with plain 996.2 carrera wheels Dealer wants around $23K. It has run through listing twice now and I'm guessing other dealers won't have margin at what he will sell for, but I'm buying for myself, not resale. Just looking to add a 911 to my tinker collection and yes, I'm very hands on and have a shop at my home. I reached out to the dealer direct and told him I'd get close to his buy price if he sent it to a shop of my liking for a PPI with scope, which based on some previous conversations with shops I'm looking at probably $500. He's willing. I'd ship it as well, so that will cost around $800. Would a guards red manual coupe for around $24,500 even be worth it with such high miles? I feel like I've been bipolar about this for 2 days because it's a manual coupe in red. Is this even worth spending $500 on a PPI????

Just buy it if u like it. Sounds like its worth the gamble.

I bought a 2003 C2 with 197k miles for cheap three years ago. Had it shipped from California. It now has 218k miles. Just have to be prepared to maintain all the little things that crop up on an older car. It�s just a cheap fun car to me so if it blows up I�ll decide what to do about at then. My point is I consider it a cheap fun project. It�s not my daily driver and I�m not going to freak out if something goes wrong. I have a 1970 911 that I�m truly invested in emotionally. I guess it�s about perspective, just my 2 cents. If you can get to that mindset, go for it!

Only thing I would recommend is to have them do a cam variation reading. If the number look good then buy it knowing that you'll be spending some additional money on various other items that need replacing on a 20 year old car. If the cam numbers come back ugly, then you'll have some room to negotiate on the pricing. This repair will cost roughly $6k. Forget about the bore scoring, IMS BS.....if it has that many miles on it, she'll run for another 100K!!!! Let us know which direction you take!

Sounds like a decent deal IMO, manual coupes are for sure more challenging to find deals on. I paid $25k for a black manual 2004 coupe (was able to dig up some IMS records and had a borescope done) a few weeks ago and I'm pretty happy. Maintenance history on a 20+ year old car that could have been owned by a DiY person is tricky, but I don't think you'd be getting ripped off by any means. Not sure where you're located, but I'm in Pittsburgh and could possibly swing up to take a look in person if you can't.

Hard no on this idea. These cars are no longer cheap to maintain, even if you DIY and it likely has plenty of deferred maintenance where you could easily spend another $20K just replacing worn parts. The seller isn't a Porsche specialist and it is often the point. That way they can claim ignorance when something obvious to a specialist would be a red flag. "I don't know about the IMS bearing" is code for "buyer beware. it's on the way out." The IMS bearing is a mechanical wear item. If it is original, it only means that it is that much closer to potentially failing. I consider it a warning flag that they only went through the gears to 40 MPH. What is that all about? What happens if the RPM goes to 6000 or the speedometer hits 60 MPH? Something obvious goes wrong is my guess. Why not consider this: Used Porsche 911 Carrera Coupe for sale at Porsche Novi It's in your neighborhood I think and is being sold by someone who knows these cars. It's in your price range, lower miles. No accidents.

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Actually these cars are cheap to maintain. Parts are easily available and if the person has a little to no mechanical background are still able to work on them.....Most use YouTube is the guide.

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Agreed I think the DiY content on forums, youtube and FB is top tier among the vehicles I've owned. Parts are pricey if you're ordering from porsche and obviously labor is insane if you just drop it at a shop and tell them to fix it.

I agree slomaro. Thats why you use FB Market place, Rennlist, Ebay, etc. for parts. Dealers are marking up parts 200+% in some cases to cover their costs of their $40 million dollar showrooms....I get it but can't support it if there's something that I can do at home.

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I'll do my best with my response to add details that may help others as well. In terms of the other car, I am in New England; that is an automatic 996.1, which is not compelling. An automatic 996 with 100K on it would have been wholesaled by a P dealer 6 months ago; increased demand for 996 is why you see it advertised, not necessarily top quality, just enough quality to be listed - there is no warranty. I don't have a price range, this is just a low entry opportunity for a manual hard roof in a desirable color to play with. I know low capex can induce high opex - "the most expensive Porsche is a cheap Porsche". I do however have my own shop (not for hire) and access to parts at cost. Does that make things cheaper? Yes, for the most part, but I always save on labor. This is a wholesale auction offering; I have no expectations of dealers to have records or detailed history knowledge on repair areas like IMS/AOS/RMS/etc. Sometimes I can do my own digging with VIN, but that's largely not the case. However, one positive is that the selling dealer willing to accommodate a PPI for me; not all are willing to accommodate PPI, and those I see as red flags and cut my pursuit. The test drive and inspection is done by a third party representing the auction house; the test drives are typically limited in scope to verify operation at operating temp. They also scan the car for pendings, test all functions, record cold start, etc. The main objective of this service is to prevent arbitration and disclose all they can regarding the vehicle. If the vehicle shows up to the buyer with an undisclosed major issue, you can submit arbitration for substantial values. Bottom line, the PPI is the leveling of the playing field in both scenarios. I would assume the PPI would identify items in need of service/replacement. Any movement past PPI would be 100% hinged on favorable, or manageable, PPI results.

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I agree. BUT (big but) I'll be very transparent that an engine rebuild due to mains or scoring is beyond what I want to mess with at home. I could probably do it with the resources out there, but I plain and simple don't want to. My main reason for the PPI with scope/DME/cam.

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Well, you seem so knowledgeable in this post. Can't argue with any of it. Not my way to buy one of these, but you have it well thought out. I'm not sure why you asked for feedback in the first place, unless it was to uncover something you may have overlooked, in which case, I think we should all feel flattered. Let us know how it works out.

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My vote is get a scope done and if it looks good take a swing, maybe plan to do the IMS early on. I'm not sure about you, but I really enjoy fixing stuff on cars, it gives me tasks I can complete that I don't get in other parts of my life or something.

For what its worth, I have bought a lot of cars at wholesale auctions. I have also bought a high mileage 996 manual coupe last year. (2000 Millennium edition with 155k, original paint and a documented engine rebuild at 130k for $17,500 from a gentleman in Florida on Autotrader.) I would have to have confirmation with paint readings on all panels that it is original paint, and a good borescope. All cars fall into 1 of 2 categories. All original paint, or not. Once its painted, it can never be original again, and value goes down in my book, certainly on something like a 911. Everything else can be fixed but original paint cant be duplicated. Even if the Carfax is clean, you dont know that it hasnt been hit. But if its all original paint, you do know it has NOT been hit, because its all right there in front of you. If its original paint, and IF it has no major borescore, then I can see it being worth mid 20s RETAIL with that mileage. So I would have to have paint meter readings and a good borescope to make the call on this car. If I cant verify those two things, Im just going to keep looking. You dont want to end up $20k+ into a car that needs an engine rebuild and doesnt even have original paint. Even with 130k mile, if the entire car is clean, rust free, unmodified and all original paint, I can see justifying an engine rebuild on a car like a Guards Red/Black manual coupe, if you had to. But Id want to be in it for less than $20k.

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This really speaks to me. This is exactly it and why I have hobby cars. In my daily life, I work from home and manage vessel (ships) construction projects. Having the ability to break free from my office, the meetings, the computer, and the problems, even if it's after my son goes to bed, JUST to work with my hands and tinker-fix-improve-etc is a valuable part of my existence. It's my thinking time; the strategies I employ during the day come from that time in the garage working on my cars, hashing out conversations and scenarios in my head while my hands are busy with another task. A late night in my shop leaves me tired but fulfilled and ready to hit homeruns the next day. It's not to say I don't have enough to play with now, but I've always wanted to add a 996 to that collective for the sake of something new to learn.

Sounds to me you have the right approach, attitude and capacity to take this car on. Let us know how the PPI looks and hopefully you get to bring home a fun exciting project.

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Stockholm syndrome right here..

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My first would be to get a vario cam reading......chances are VERY likely the pads need replacing. If the IMS or bore score were a problem, they would have happened by now.....cam pads I'm fairly certain are in need replacing. That's $6K+

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What did you decide to do?

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this is more of a 996.1 problem right? OP is looking at a .2, still worth checking cam variances though.

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Don't believe the internet hype, don't fool yourself. Bore score and imsb failure can and does happen in low mile engines, mid miles engines and high mile engines. Probably more in the high mile engines over 100k. What you can be 100% sure of is that ALL high miles m96 engines >100k miles will always have bores way out of specs for out of round and taper. Some say the extreme excess oor is the harbinger of bore score.The block structure fails on our engines, thats just a sad fact of life. ALL m96 engines have 1 time use defective blocks from the get go. Thats why a proper rebuild always addresses block structure with re-engineering the block with sleeves. Correct, no actuator pads on the 3 chain 996.2 engines, just on the 5 chain 996.1 engines. But the 996.2 do have their own set of valve train problems. Chain problems are 1 of them.... When the .2 cam deviation is out of specs usually the big chains (because of chain stretch maybe because of broken weakened rollers/chains) have to be changed out meaning engine out and torn all the way down. Guides/tensors might help some but rarely will fix the problem 100%. Also on the 3 chain its not uncommon for roller pieces to bust off the long chains and get caught up in the scavenge pumps breaking off the snouts of pump. If you've got high deviation, good thing to check chains for broken parts of rollers carefully. Actually probably not a bad idea whenever a 3chain valve cover is off, to spin engine slowly to check the full length of both chains carefully for busted rollers missing pieces like in below pic. This pic is on a forum members engine with 60,000 miles with broken roller that necessitates a full engine tear down, so,,, consequentially got a full 4.1L Slacker/Hoffman engine job. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...4-1-build.html

Yeah, the more mileage, the more wear and tear on parts and the more parts that will need to be refreshed if they havent already been refreshed. This is where a skilled DIY guy can benefit greatly in saving money. if there are no service records, here is what I would do with an invasive PPI. 1. Assuming the oil hasnt just been replaced, get an oil sample and send it in for a test to see whats going on inside the engine. 2. Drop the sump and cut open the oil fikter to see whats in them. 3. Scope the bores to see their condition. Assuming everything looks good and you buy the car, here is what I would do. First, take care of bullet proofing the engine before you do anything else with these 3 items. 1. Upgrade the IMSB to either the LN Retro or Solution. Regardless of what some folks may say, the factory IMSB, especially in a 996.2 is a failure waiting to happen. The LN upgrade eliminates that risk. No brainer. 2. Replace your water pump with a new one. Pay attention to the plastic fins on the old one to see if any have broken. Regardless of their condition, make a concerted effort to flush the cooling system thoroughly just in case one broke off with a previous watet pump. Cracked heads are very easy to eliminate by running a fresh water pump and changing it every 5-7 years. No brainer. 3. Upgrade you factory AOS to the UAOS. This mitigates the risk of the factory AOS dumping oil in the intake and cylinders which results in smoke plumes, hydralock (cylinder cracking) and even intermix that can come from AOS failure. Then I would replace all of the PITA items that do not lead to engine failure., but will leave you stranded, loss of sleep at night as well as help the engine to run better. 1. Refresh fuel injectors, spark plugs. Ignition coils, oxy sensors. 2. Replace oil sender unit. Its gonna go and scare the hell out of you when your oil pressure goes to 0. 3. Coolant tanks and check your hoses Plenty of other items big ticket items that you can refresh such as clutch, flywheel, suspension, exhaust, tires, brakes, power steering lines, etc. But none of these items have anything to do with making sure the engine is in great shape. Best of luck. A well sorted 996.2 is the best.