New To Forum - Returned To The Club after 15yrs !!!

Hi Quick post to introduce myself - new on the forum however former PCGB member from 1997 when I was into 928's ! How time flies Just in the process of selling my classic car - 1975 Daimler Coupe and hoping to source an early 3.6 engined 996. Prefer a manual in silver with Black interior. This will be a second "hobby car" however will get used and I have a european run to Spain in mind / planned for later this year ! Already have visions of a rear main oil seal letting go depositing fresh mobil synthetic on the Autoroute or perhaps grappling with defective coil packs at the side of some french services en route at 3 in the morning [ ][ ] Im picking up on the threads and guides for buying advice. Club and forum seem superb. Im hoping to get to Cars In The Park at Newby Hall this Sunday too . My budget is about 11k which I appreciate is going to be a higher mileage 3.6 at the lower end of the market, however ill try sourcing the best car I can privately for a cash sale. Considering one of those Quinten Wilson warrantys also for some peace of mind !! Will update re progress and hopefully soon a purchase when I take the plunge !!!! Regards. Dave

Welcome back Dave! Enjoy your search, and if you have any questions, post them up. £11k might be a bit optimistic, as for a facelift car you might find something for that money has been a bit neglected, but if you can do some of the work yourself, you might bag a bargain.

Thanks Richard, much appreciated. I'm concious that im at the lower and danger end of the market here ! There's a couple of early 3.6's that ive seen at 12,495 on ebay - links below. Both with dealers and just over 110,000 miles. I'd figure on that basis that I might be somewhere near my budget, especially with a private vendor. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261005754992?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Porsche-911-996-3-6-Carrera-2-/290697862171?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item43aef15c1b My intention would be to look after fluids, filters, brakes, general care and maintainance myself and farm out anything more scary to a pro. Main worries i've picked up on are the intermediate shafts going and rear main oil seals giving up although I am gathering these should be less of a worry on a 3.6 - hopefully !!! Regards. Dave

Over the last few years these cars have become affordable (to buy) for a much wider audience. People are buying cars which were £70k+ for less than the price of a new Fiesta, without realising the cost of running such a vehicle. The trouble is that 996s will keep going, even if neglected. The brake disks, for example, can be badly corroded, yet still work well. Suspension joints go, but they still drive perfectly well (if you ignore the noises). Aircon can leak, but it won't stop the car driving, etc, etc. So you get situations where someone will buy a good car, run it for 2-3 years, face some large bills, and move it on. On the surface, it will look nice and shiny, and will probably drive very nicely, but will need a good amount of money spending to bring it back to tip-top condition. It may have a full service history, but that won't take into account the underlying faults. What you really want to see is a large stack of receipts for major items over the last 2-3 years, as a positive sign that it is indeed a good 'un. If you are buying privately, and aren't a seasoned 'modern Porsche' buyer, it is especially important that you get a pre-purchase inspection done. Don't get too hung up about an RMS leak. At worst, it will be the odd drip of oil on the garage floor. They don't gush. It can be replaced when the clutch is changed, at minimal extra cost. As for an Intermediate Shaft bearing failure there is no real pattern, but I would suggest that you are less likely to get a failure on a 110k miles car than a 25k miles car. If you want some warning, and peace of mind, you could fit an IMS Guardian. Buy carefully, go in with eyes wide open, and don't let heart rule head.

Thanks for the advice Richard - those are wise words that i'll be well advised to follow and I understand where you are coming from completely. I've been doing some reading on the internet and have also ordered your handbook for the 996 on line this morning so ill look forward to reading up further on these cars. I have experience over the years of other prestige makes and of the older classic car world. However since looking for a 928 back in 1997 I have been away from the marque, hence your advice and help from the forum is very well received. Im heading up to "Cars In The Park" at Newby Hall tomorrow, so will hopefully meet some club and forum members and learn some more ! Regards. Dave

Just a thought and hope I don't upset anyone on this forum , but for £11k you could get a cracking Boxster in great condition. I had one before my 911 and I still think its a great drive now. Just my 2ps worth Jon

Hi Jon Thats a good point you make and I have actually considered it when looking through the ads, but a 911 is the one for me ! One thing I am considering is looking at a slightly older, but well maintained 3.4 My original reason for going 3.6 was that I thought the potential engine issues had been completely eradicated, but on reading up various sources this doesn't seem to be the case. I am taking a pragmatic view and accept that any performace car can be a risk and costs to maintain, and that problems are relatively uncommon really. So, I think I will include 3.4's in my search process and see what I can locate !!! Im open to opinions / suggestions re this thought process !! Regards. Dave

I've not even seen exploded 3.6 sell for 11k? I think that even optimistic for a MK1. Fairly tatty 3.4 can make more than that. I think £12,500 for a 3.4 and you should find a good one. Happy hunting.

Dave, As an owner of a 3.4 996 for over 5 years, I'd certainly suggest that is a better option for your price range. Bought mine in Jan 2007 with 46k on the clock, now it's done about 75k (see the running reports if you're interested). Has been perfectly reliable in that time, but money spent on regular servicing and maintenance. As Richard says, they will run with very low cost for a while, then a few big jobs need to be done. Mine had a quite a bit of front suspension work done last summer, together with a couple of radiators. Mine is a 2000 model, so also benefits from pre CO2 tax banding. It's not currently for sale, but last year, when I was looking at upgrading to a 997, I was only offered about £12k trade-in, so a year on and I guess (sadly) that it's only worth about £10k. With all the maintenence it has had done, that's a lot of car for the money. Given time, I would expect you can find a similarly pampered 3.4 for around the £11K mark, that would be a better long term bet than a leggy tatty 3.6, IMHO. With regard to RMS/IMS etc, I don't get the impression there is a lot of difference between the two engines (and remember those cases are rare anyway), but if you read in depth Baz Hartechs research on engine failures (via the Hartech web site pdfs and various postings from him on PH), I think you'll find that actually the 3.6 engine is _more_ prone to bore scoring than the 3.4 due to some technical differences inside the engine (it was either thinner liners, or smaller cooling channels, or both, IIRC). So, if you don't mind the look of the 3.4's headlights (I actually prefer them now, over the facelift's model), can do without a glovebox (they all have door pockets anyway) and can put up with a manual boot lid release, then the 3.4 may well be a good option for you... HTH, Martin. P.S. Silver with black interior is a good choice

Hi Martin, My 3.4 has an electric boot release ;-) 2001.

Good point... that came in before the facelift.

Very well put, get a nice 3.4 and it will be a very nice car to own no point in trying to get a not so good 3.6 that can have problems and a good chance within your price scale. Good luck Phil

Welcome and good luck finding a suitable weekend 911. I might be tempted to part with mine soon, not entirely sure, but if I did it wouldn't be terribly expensive (shameless plug).

Ok, time for an update and there have been a few up's n downs and changes of direction since my original post. Having done some reading i'd actually managed to frighen myself right away from a 996 purchase - especially at my end of the budget ! In the meantime ive sold my Daimler coupe fairly quickly which put me in a position to really start hunting another car. I looked a BMW 6 series (2005), BMW Z4's , not running a second car and being sensible, however, taking a step back, thinking carefully and driving a couple of 996's has put me back in the frame for one ! Just been to view three cars over last couple of days as follows, all with dealers : 1) '98 3.4 carerra. 160k miles. £8500 negotiable. Viewed this car and walked away - struck me as very tired and passed between a lot of owners, most likely when the bills were looming ! 2) '00 3.4 carerra. 80k miles . £11500. Negotiable price and overall seems a nice car. However needs tyres x4 imminently, 3x wheels needs refurbing due to kerb damage, both exhaust boxes blowing and full service looming. Drove nicely, bodywork good with a couple of minor grazes. Just doesn't make sense at that price with what's required , and of course there's always the further hidden extras once you get into the service etc. Would need to be about 9k to make sense to me. Strikes me that the last owner has seen the bills looming bailed out rather than spend the money! 3) '02 3.6 Targa. 120k miles. £12995 firm. Seems a nice car actually. Good body, interior, wheels, trim and comprehensive history including recent clutch and RMS at specialist. The only alarm bell for me was the coolant level in expansion tank was right down, barely any fluid evident when cold. This suggests lack of care and certainly either a leak somewhere or early sign of internal issues. No sign of mayonaise on the dipstick however. This car has a sale already agreed but if it fell through i'd be tempted to have a second look. High miles dont put me off as long as there is good history. Any views / comments welcome. The search continues !!!!

Dave, the coolant tanks are prone to stress or heat cracking so could be as simple as that. Most (if not all) cars will have had the tank changed at some point. The 3.4 80k Carrera would be a good one to get if you can do a bit yourself. New exhaust boxes can be picked up for about £400 if you know where to look, whats in a full service if you can DIY it. £700 for a set of tyres of reasonable quality. I would go in with a bid, the guy can only say no or haggle, something that people seem to have lost the ability to do nowadays!!!! I bought my 996 with a blown engine at 134,000 miles for 3 grand. I am doing the engine rebuild myself and have spent about 6 grand on that although most of the internals will be new, rods, all new valves, tappets, chans, tensioners, etc. The car is also getting a thorough going over so all the suspension will be removed, some new wheel bearinsg (it is a C4 so worth doing at that miles in my eyes) All the rads are out at the moment for a bit of a clean and paint. Will be a nicely sorted car when done and worth spending the money on in my eyes. Alasdair

Hi Alasdair The 80k car has passed from the private owner to a dealer. Nice chap however he will want his return out of the deal and there's a fair amount of expense to go into it. Had I caught the car with the private owner then I would have gone ahead and haggled - I bet the car could have been bought bewteen 8 to 9 k bearing in mind what needed doing. I'm happy DIY wise with basic servicing, brakes etc but havent got the time or your expertise in terms of a full rebuild. I really like your method of getting into a 996 though - if I came accross one like you have, i'd buy it then hand over to Hartech for a full rebuild and upgrade for peace of mind - I dont think there is any better way into a 996 than yours !!

Dave, I had been considering one for a while but just loathed to pay money for a car that may need another few grand put into it and you would never know when it was going to go. Most cars will fail at some point and the mileage never goes down with use. I would rather pay little for a car and do the work myself and add value to the car. My budget was a bit limited as well at the time. The car was 50 yards away from my own industrial unit so a bit of a score that way. The engine work will include: New genuine con rod set (away being balanced at the mo) All new valves (all exhust valves turned out to be bent very slightly so someone has obviously had a small overrev or incorrect cam timing adjustment) All new genuine Porsche gaskets and seals All new head studs, casing studs, etc. All new tensioner guides, chains, Vario cam pads and new solenoids. All new main and big end bearings All new oil pick up pipes and breathers in the sump New AOS New water pump New fuel injectors All new hydraulic tappets Had block and head faces machined. I have also had the Hartech liner mods done as well which entails them rerounding the bores and putting in support rings. they also modify the cooling passages as well. The crank, front pulley and clutch have been dynamically balanced as well. Should be a nice engine when built when I get the time. I also purchased the special tools for the rebuild as well. Alasdair

Sounds great and what peace of mind you'll have with the upgrades. This seems to be the way to go. I wonder how to go about sourcing a car similar to yours, I wonder if Hartech have any contacts with owners or wheter its just a case of waiting for one to be advertised......

Keep an eye out on Gumtree, the owners club forums, Ebay, etc. Ebay seems to be the place where some come up but they go for strong money to the breakers. A bust engine will still go for £1500 for parts. Alasdair

Thanks Alasdair Definately would like to drop on a Hartech engined example !!

Been to view two further cars over last few days. 1) 2000 C2 manual, just over 80k miles and priced circa 11.5k - Private sale. Appeared very nice but on closer inspection needed two new rear tyres, exhausts and the engine to me didnt sound quite as sweet as it ought to (accepting initial start up rattles for a few seconds) - a lot of thinks like new discs etc had been done but all some time ago and in all I walked away not happy to make an offer. Had previously had remedial work re oil / water mixing at OPC. 2) 1998 C2 manual, just under 80k miles and priced just over 12k. With dealer on behalf of a friend and advertised as pampered and showroom condition - really bulled up in fact as being a mint car. Overall appeared "ok" but on closer inspection both rear silencer boxes rotted at lower edge, front PU needs repaint, screen delaminating on bottom edges, inside front discs pitted, n/s cam cover leaking oil quite badly and the death knell, stain of oil leak from either the RMS / IMS. So lots of money to spend a the big question mark as to whether the IMS bearing is on the way out - Also on startup she seemd quite sweet but then at idle a fair bit of rattle / tappet type noise was noticable. I actually placed an offer relative to the amount that needs spending on the car as I do think it would be worth putting right however I think the owner might be burying head in sand and hoping someone comes along with a load of cash that doesnt notice the snags !! So - the search continues !!!

Please don't think that oil in that region instantly means bearing failure + that's the reason the sports car your looking at has that price tag it has in the first place, Because it comes with the million dollar question "when and if the bearing fails". Proceed with caution as with any second hand car, But if the washer bottle was empty on a Porsche some folk would put double or treble figures on it. I really don't get the whole IMS thing, If it bothers people that much then do something about it. There are cars that when they were new was worth a quarter of what these were, and need cam belts every few years that don't weigh in much less than having a after market IMSB fitted that have had no failures apart from that caused by poor installation. I think the 996 is a great buy. Good luck in the search and enjoy. I am.

Good luck in your search. My 996 'rattles' for about a second on start up, then it's quiet. I think it's pretty common and there is a vid somewhere *found it* http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/996-forum/649607-996-hot-start-noise.html This guy ripped his whole engine apart and replaced nearly everything and still had it :S It's never worried me and I've heard a load of other 996's with the same noise on startup so it's never bothered me. T Cheers,

Thanks guys, your advice is all appreciated - i'm probably being a bit over cautious but trying not to rush head on into buying too soon and regretting it. I'm learning more about what to expect and what to check out. Certainly the content of the adverts has been on some occassions actually misleading in terms of condition so that must be taken with a pinch of salt whether trade or private vendors. Meanwhile im enjoying the search !!!

So true regarding adds. My MG was advertised as one of the most mint examples in the country. It needed x2 door handles replacing, a new intake plenum, new brakes front and back, had a leaking thermostat and a leaky boot. This was with a trader, although it had these issues, the rest of it was pretty decent (it was also the right spec and one of the last ever made before the factory shut so I wanted it ), and, subsequently we cut a deal on him replacing parts with new and me knocking down price and doing the rest he didn't want to do. The most bizarre thing? I sent a text to the previous owner through the MG club who had traded it in a couple of weeks earlier, he had nothing to gain by telling me lies, he said it too was one of the best cars of it's kind and needed nothing doing :S I've come to the conclusion that either some people are either clearly deluded or their idea of 'mint' means it has a shiny coat of wax on it. I spend a lot of time on my motors, but my 996 still has two pin dents, one stone chip on the bonnet and two 1" scratches I've put on it in the garage (grrrr). Judging by the way most people seem to describe their cars I could call mine concourse!!!!

Yeah ideas do seem to vary in terms of what's "mint" or "immaculate". The car I looked at yesterday bore no resemblance to the advert description !! The "rear wheelarch test" is always a telltale in terms of how a cars looked after (sad I know) scrape your hand round the rear wheelarch lip and see if you dislodge enough mud to fill a window box - I always blast this area with the hose and clean out any mud / debris on my own cars - none of the cars ive viewed have been properly cleaned out under the arches despite being "bulled up" to be mint !! Trouble is on your own car, you know every little mark or ding which most don't notice.

I had to lol at your arch comment as I just cleaned out my arches on the daily driver today. The shooting range I go to has a very, very muddy track, from the last time I went it looks like I have been rallying! It was insane how much had got up in there, and around the inside edges of the side sills. I used a whole bucket of water and an old sponge and got a ton of rubbish from around the arch from just one trip there last week. On the Porsche I go one step further though I not only clean out the arch liners and take the wheels off to clean behind them etc when dirty, but I regularly clean the arch lip and wax oil. Last year I also gave the arch liners a fresh coat of plastic 'bumper trim' paint which works well. I recall posting up a thread some time ago about using a coating of plastic bumper trim paint, some thought it would come off, but it makes the arch liner nice and dark instead of having that horrible grey-ish dry plastic look when wheels are on full lock, and it has yet to need re-doing.