The future for Porsche? - Page 4 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

As a big fan of the brand, I’m fearful for Porsche bearing in mind the sheer number of pre-registered/new Taycans currently available unsold. They must be panicking especially with their commitment to EV for both future Macan and Boxster/Cayman models, both of which launches appear to have been delayed. I don’t think many Porsche fans are ready for EV unless they take advantage of BIK or put them through a business where it’s a no brainer currently. The downturn in the market due to the cost of living crisis plus hikes in interest rates really hasn’t helped either. Porsche need to wake up and smell the coffee and offer some real incentives (yes some models are being discounted). Their arrogance will be their downfall if they don’t address the problem head on. Worrying times ahead.

Give it a rest. I think they’ll manage.

£50k for a replacement battery doesn't help their cause.

Monkeylegend said: £50k for a replacement battery doesn't help their cause. Considering used ones can be had for less than £10k I can’t imagine an owner taking a 10 year old car to Porsche for a new one. Refurbished seems much more likely.

Boxster5 said: Their arrogance will be their downfall if they don’t address the problem head on. Worrying times ahead. I think they'll be just fine. https://bmmagazine.co.uk/news/porsche-sales-econom... Porsche has reported a jump in sales and profits in the first nine months of the year thanks to strong performances from its bestselling Cayenne series and all-electric Taycan. Sales revenue rose 12.6 per cent to €30.13bn (£26.27bn) on the back of near 10 per cent year-on-year rise in deliveries to 242,722. The revenue increase helped pre-tax profits come in at €5.6bn between January and September, up from €5.3bn in 2022. The Cayenne remained the marque’s bestselling series with sales reaching 69,461, while its electric Taycan rose significantly to 29,204, up over 11 per cent.

Boxster5 said: As a big fan of the brand, I’m fearful for Porsche bearing in mind the sheer number of pre-registered/new Taycans currently available unsold. They must be panicking especially with their commitment to EV for both future Macan and Boxster/Cayman models, both of which launches appear to have been delayed. I don’t think many Porsche fans are ready for EV unless they take advantage of BIK or put them through a business where it’s a no brainer currently. The downturn in the market due to the cost of living crisis plus hikes in interest rates really hasn’t helped either. Porsche need to wake up and smell the coffee and offer some real incentives (yes some models are being discounted). Their arrogance will be their downfall if they don’t address the problem head on. Worrying times ahead. You obviously haven’t looked at Porsche’s last set of results. Impressive - and plenty of fat for lean times. Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 17th November 21:39

Discombobulate said: Boxster5 said: As a big fan of the brand, I’m fearful for Porsche bearing in mind the sheer number of pre-registered/new Taycans currently available unsold. They must be panicking especially with their commitment to EV for both future Macan and Boxster/Cayman models, both of which launches appear to have been delayed. I don’t think many Porsche fans are ready for EV unless they take advantage of BIK or put them through a business where it’s a no brainer currently. The downturn in the market due to the cost of living crisis plus hikes in interest rates really hasn’t helped either. Porsche need to wake up and smell the coffee and offer some real incentives (yes some models are being discounted). Their arrogance will be their downfall if they don’t address the problem head on. Worrying times ahead. You obviously haven’t looked at Porsche’s last set of results. Impressive - and plenty of fat for lean times. Edited by Discombobulate on Friday 17th November 21:39 It certainly doesn’t seem to be reflected in UK dealers with lots of unsold new/pre-registered stock some with decent discounts - something I’ve never seen in my 20 years of buying Porsches. Times are tough for all manufacturers with the transition to EV and Porsche is not immune to that. Let’s see how it pans out.

Boxster5 said: It certainly doesn’t seem to be reflected in UK dealers with lots of unsold new/pre-registered stock some with decent discounts - something I’ve never seen in my 20 years of buying Porsches. Times are tough for all manufacturers with the transition to EV and Porsche is not immune to that. Let’s see how it pans out. Those unsold Taycans etc are peanuts though, especially considering the mark up. Nobody at Porsche is losing sleep over it.

julian987R said: Those unsold Taycans etc are peanuts though, especially considering the mark up. Nobody at Porsche is losing sleep over it. You do realise you're arguing with the same muppets with multiple accounts ?

guyvert1 said: julian987R said: Those unsold Taycans etc are peanuts though, especially considering the mark up. Nobody at Porsche is losing sleep over it. You do realise you're arguing with the same muppets with multiple accounts ? people have multiple accounts to debate between themselves?

julian987R said: guyvert1 said: julian987R said: Those unsold Taycans etc are peanuts though, especially considering the mark up. Nobody at Porsche is losing sleep over it. You do realise you're arguing with the same muppets with multiple accounts ? people have multiple accounts to debate between themselves? It’s unbelievably sad and common. Couple of years back there was a chap got banned, it turned out an entire thread of people backing him was all him. He’d been using multiple personas for years. Ranging from odd to very aggressive.

supersport said: julian987R said: guyvert1 said: julian987R said: Those unsold Taycans etc are peanuts though, especially considering the mark up. Nobody at Porsche is losing sleep over it. You do realise you're arguing with the same muppets with multiple accounts ? people have multiple accounts to debate between themselves? It’s unbelievably sad and common. Couple of years back there was a chap got banned, it turned out an entire thread of people backing him was all him. He’d been using multiple personas for years. Ranging from odd to very aggressive. That is nuts! blimey I thought I was bad enough

julian987R said: That is nuts! blimey I thought I was bad enough Just wondering, is that in legendary threads?

I think that there is a strategic issue for Porsche, ( I have some cars, by the way). The brand identity to me has always been anchored in motorsport success and engineering excellence and innovation. The driving experience has always been very focused. I am of course well aware that the Cayennes and Mayans etc are the core of the sales volume these days, but the casual observer might still think of racing and engineering. Now the world in changing quickly and we will see the emergence of new players, especially from China who will have a significant competitive advantage in the EV space as they are already ahead. Even small players from places like Croatia are showing up in the EV supercar space. Typically the GT cars were periodic holders of the Nürburgring lap record, the dedicated team cars were competitive at Le Mans and there were waiting lists for the latest models. However,the conventionally powered cars with all of that engineering history have nowhere to go in terms of future development. There will be two records for the Ring , EV and non-EV no doubt, but the overall recored will go to the EV in the future. I may be totally wrong , but it seems to me that VAG has made a strategic error in being behind on EV power and Porsche is just part of that concern. Believe me, I want to be wrong. I have had 4 GT3RS and love the feel of them, but I am less confident that they are the way of the future.

RDMcG said: I think that there is a strategic issue for Porsche, ( I have some cars, by the way). The brand identity to me has always been anchored in motorsport success and engineering excellence and innovation. The driving experience has always been very focused. I am of course well aware that the Cayennes and Mayans etc are the core of the sales volume these days, but the casual observer might still think of racing and engineering. Now the world in changing quickly and we will see the emergence of new players, especially from China who will have a significant competitive advantage in the EV space as they are already ahead. Even small players from places like Croatia are showing up in the EV supercar space. Typically the GT cars were periodic holders of the Nürburgring lap record, the dedicated team cars were competitive at Le Mans and there were waiting lists for the latest models. However,the conventionally powered cars with all of that engineering history have nowhere to go in terms of future development. There will be two records for the Ring , EV and non-EV no doubt, but the overall recored will go to the EV in the future. I may be totally wrong , but it seems to me that VAG has made a strategic error in being behind on EV power and Porsche is just part of that concern. Believe me, I want to be wrong. I have had 4 GT3RS and love the feel of them, but I am less confident that they are the way of the future. Interesting post. There is also the issue of Porsche trading on a name it established fifty years ago. Porsche used to be mentioned in the same breath as Ferrari. In the 1980s people used to put "My other car is a Porsche" stickers in the back window of jalopies. Then Porsche wanted to become all things to all men - the SUVs, the saloons, and now Porsche is everywhere. It's a trick that only works for so long, and now I think the brand has become boring. Just another German car. Sure, they still make some great sports cars. But it's been a long time since anything Porsche has turned my head, classics notwithstanding.

guyvert1 said: julian987R said: Those unsold Taycans etc are peanuts though, especially considering the mark up. Nobody at Porsche is losing sleep over it. You do realise you're arguing with the same muppets with multiple accounts ? Ehhh - does that really happen?

https://youtu.be/V0dqoptI84s?si=LrSJa9k7jINwGFxQ Only Tesla and Toyota will survive - worth a watch above Edited by Vroom2 on Saturday 18th November 08:43

Only Tesla and Toyota will survive - Nick Colas

Vroom2 said: https://youtu.be/V0dqoptI84s?si=LrSJa9k7jINwGFxQ Only Tesla and Toyota will survive - worth a watch above Edited by Vroom2 on Saturday 18th November 08:43 I’m interested by the idea regarding Tesla and Toyota, but not enough to invest 1hr26m….! Any chance of a summary explanation of his thesis?

I think that Porsche have nailed their colours to the mast and are an industrial juggernaut with VAG. You can be sure that all decisions made will be purely financial ... hence they will survive but possibly not in the "classically emotionally" branded character of the past (... when they did almost go bust between 3.2 / 964 and 993). For some of us (old farts ? in Porsche's eyes ?) we feel the loss and are disengaging, not least because we can't go into our OPC and spec and buy a car that we want at the normal price. So maybe we aren't such old farts, but the shareholder of Porsche certainly don't care and there is no point in speaking against the Sun. In a way my view is that Porsche are a bit stuck ... their Ev's aren't yet good enough, they are leaving their classic market behind and everybody knows that the middle ranges are VW's ... but for the moment at least the brand name appeals.

Boxster5 said: It certainly doesn’t seem to be reflected in UK dealers with lots of unsold new/pre-registered stock some with decent discounts - something I’ve never seen in my 20 years of buying Porsches. Times are tough for all manufacturers with the transition to EV and Porsche is not immune to that. Let’s see how it pans out. Porsche have sold something like 50% more cars in the UK this year….in that context things are perhaps not quite so bad. That said the OPC’s have got a lot of cars sitting in their storage compounds, that’s an issue they will have to deal with. In my mind the biggest issue Porsche have is that the core of their business is the 911….whose USP is that it is a rear engined 2+2 sports car. How they keep a 911 feeling like a 911 with “hybridisation” and EV’s I don’t know. Personally I don’t leaven like the 4wd variants now !

Picked up my 991.2 GTS today and happened to mention that I still have a deposit in with another dealer on a 992.2. Dealer said they found out this week that all 992.2s will be hybrid, with much reduced allocations - their allocation for first year of production likely to be c.30 cars vs 70 x 992s this year, the suggestion being that production volume was being pushed onto SUVs and EVs with 911 to be pushed further upmarket. No idea if accurate but interesting nonetheless.

Louis Balfour said: RDMcG said: I think that there is a strategic issue for Porsche, ( I have some cars, by the way). The brand identity to me has always been anchored in motorsport success and engineering excellence and innovation. The driving experience has always been very focused. I am of course well aware that the Cayennes and Mayans etc are the core of the sales volume these days, but the casual observer might still think of racing and engineering. Now the world in changing quickly and we will see the emergence of new players, especially from China who will have a significant competitive advantage in the EV space as they are already ahead. Even small players from places like Croatia are showing up in the EV supercar space. Typically the GT cars were periodic holders of the Nürburgring lap record, the dedicated team cars were competitive at Le Mans and there were waiting lists for the latest models. However,the conventionally powered cars with all of that engineering history have nowhere to go in terms of future development. There will be two records for the Ring , EV and non-EV no doubt, but the overall recored will go to the EV in the future. I may be totally wrong , but it seems to me that VAG has made a strategic error in being behind on EV power and Porsche is just part of that concern. Believe me, I want to be wrong. I have had 4 GT3RS and love the feel of them, but I am less confident that they are the way of the future. Interesting post. There is also the issue of Porsche trading on a name it established fifty years ago. Porsche used to be mentioned in the same breath as Ferrari. In the 1980s people used to put "My other car is a Porsche" stickers in the back window of jalopies. Then Porsche wanted to become all things to all men - the SUVs, the saloons, and now Porsche is everywhere. It's a trick that only works for so long, and now I think the brand has become boring. Just another German car. Sure, they still make some great sports cars. But it's been a long time since anything Porsche has turned my head, classics notwithstanding. Sadly I do agree with you, they are becoming like bmw and Merc.

Milemuncher said: Picked up my 991.2 GTS today and happened to mention that I still have a deposit in with another dealer on a 992.2. Dealer said they found out this week that all 992.2s will be hybrid, with much reduced allocations - their allocation for first year of production likely to be c.30 cars vs 70 x 992s this year, the suggestion being that production volume was being pushed onto SUVs and EVs with 911 to be pushed further upmarket. No idea if accurate but interesting nonetheless. Remember you were talking to car sales person, the old trick of sorry sir we won’t make enough of those for everyone. Limited numbers see!

GT4RS said: Remember you were talking to car sales person, the old trick of sorry sir we won’t make enough of those for everyone. Limited numbers see! Yes, yes, I always take it with a pinch of salt - but to be fair this salesman had no dog in this particular fight - I’d just bought a car off him and the deposit is down elsewhere with a completely different group.

The race to make fully autonomous mass produced passenger vehicles. No one else will make it in time. WindyCommon said: I’m interested by the idea regarding Tesla and Toyota, but not enough to invest 1hr26m….! Any chance of a summary explanation of his thesis?

https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/te... Snapshot above

GT4RS said: Milemuncher said: Picked up my 991.2 GTS today and happened to mention that I still have a deposit in with another dealer on a 992.2. Dealer said they found out this week that all 992.2s will be hybrid, with much reduced allocations - their allocation for first year of production likely to be c.30 cars vs 70 x 992s this year, the suggestion being that production volume was being pushed onto SUVs and EVs with 911 to be pushed further upmarket. No idea if accurate but interesting nonetheless. Remember you were talking to car sales person, the old trick of sorry sir we won’t make enough of those for everyone. Limited numbers see! There is absolutely no way Porsche are giving out production information/specs for the 992.2 when it hasn’t even been launched. DP’s/Heads of Sales have probably seen one by now but Porsche won’t be letting information like all 992.2s being hybrid leak out…which they know it will.

They’re a highly successful company and brand and they can sell ICE cars until at least 2035 in the EU and in other markets for longer. I wouldn’t get too worried for their share holders yet. If Chinese cars get too successful, the EU and the States will close ranks and stop their competitiveness.

Cheib said: There is absolutely no way Porsche are giving out production information/specs for the 992.2 when it hasn’t even been launched. DP’s/Heads of Sales have probably seen one by now but Porsche won’t be letting information like all 992.2s being hybrid leak out…which they know it will. I don’t think the hybrid bit is much of a secret tbf but the rest could also be Porsche playing games with dealers as in next year you will/might get a much lower allocation so why don’t you take another few cars now to be on the safe side. The whole foisting EVs on people next year will have an impact uniquely in the UK you’d imagine. There is probably a business case for pre regging now.

Long term they will be fine but short term it's very grim until they manage their way out of the massive overstocking of expensive vehicles. Cutting 2024 production to force people into old stock is an attempt to protect the brand but people won't buy old stock without major incentives. Watch out fir more smoke an mirrors

I was at my local OPC last week and I just have to admit their was none of the dealer stock that I had the slightest interest in! 40 years ago as a car mad teenager I used to love looking at the showroom full of 911,924,944 and 928's, Such is turning into an old fart I suppose!

stichill99 said: I was at my local OPC last week and I just have to admit their was none of the dealer stock that I had the slightest interest in! 40 years ago as a car mad teenager I used to love looking at the showroom full of 911,924,944 and 928's, Such is turning into an old fart I suppose! I remember those days very well.

ChrisW. said: I think that Porsche have nailed their colours to the mast and are an industrial juggernaut with VAG. You can be sure that all decisions made will be purely financial ... hence they will survive but possibly not in the "classically emotionally" branded character of the past (... when they did almost go bust between 3.2 / 964 and 993). For some of us (old farts ? in Porsche's eyes ?) we feel the loss and are disengaging, not least because we can't go into our OPC and spec and buy a car that we want at the normal price. So maybe we aren't such old farts, but the shareholder of Porsche certainly don't care and there is no point in speaking against the Sun. In a way my view is that Porsche are a bit stuck ... their Ev's aren't yet good enough, they are leaving their classic market behind and everybody knows that the middle ranges are VW's ... but for the moment at least the brand name appeals. Agree Chris, But as we all know Porsches bread and butter are Macan and Cayenne and to swap both ranges ASAP over to pure EVs is in my opinion a big risk as i think the sales numbers will be smaller. The Taycan is also doing damage to the brands residuals reputation at the moment, and I recently learned that all the BIK and other tax advantages only apply to NEW cars, and I would never want to own any EV simply because 50% of thieir value is a bloody battery. I am also amazed that the UK is the top market for Taycan with our current crap infrastructure.

burman said: I am also amazed that the UK is the top market for Taycan with our current crap infrastructure. I'm not, my boss has was able to claim 130% back agaisnt his corporation tax. They were always going to tank on the used market.

burman said: Agree Chris, But as we all know Porsches bread and butter are Macan and Cayenne and to swap both ranges ASAP over to pure EVs is in my opinion a big risk as i think the sales numbers will be smaller. The Taycan is also doing damage to the brands residuals reputation at the moment, and I recently learned that all the BIK and other tax advantages only apply to NEW cars, and I would never want to own any EV simply because 50% of thieir value is a bloody battery. I am also amazed that the UK is the top market for Taycan with our current crap infrastructure. BIK is the same for new or second hand. It’s only the 1st year WDA that doesn’t apply for second hand. A second hand Taycan at a huge discount still has plenty of advantages for those with a company. Firstly, you’ll pay corp tax, but it’s not personal funds so you won’t have paid higher rate income tax or dividend rate. Secondly, insurance, tyres, servicing etc is a company expense. These things add up when taking a Panamera to the OPC.

The problem for Taycan is the UK and Europe doesn’t historically buy cars of that size in huge volumes. The EV tax advantages on new cars massively inflated demand artificially due lack of alternatives in either same or next size category down. Until fairly recently if you didn’t want a EV SUV your choices where Model 3, i4 or EQS. Remember in ‘22 Porsche sold more Taycan’s in the UK than combined sales of Audi A7, BMW 7er and Mercedes S class. Residuals of cars in that sector have traditionally been pretty grim, but as mostly corporate purchases not something the buyer feels personally. If you are the MD of widget and sprocket ltd rocking up a S class to customer meetings that’s on the books as an executive pool car *hint* this is just factored into your operating costs. The “plummeting” values are just a reversion to historical sector means. You should due to lack of used demand take a bath on such cars.

Capitalism is cannibalistic in its nature, only around 25% of the original companies listed on the FTSE100 in 1984 are still there, giants have fallen, VAG aren't immune no business is as most have a shelf life. Kodak is a classic example of a market leader that held on to its legacy cash cow for too long, but it's very hard for a legacy business to change and compete with disrupters that have cash to burn whilst the legacy business is held to its qtr outlook by the same investors that throw money at the start ups

When you go into a Porsche Centre now, the asking prices of cars in the showrooms are beyond belief. They’ve absolutely rocketed in recent times (as have other brands - the so called luxury car tax £40k+ now incorporates the likes of cars from Kia and Hyundai -time for some readjustment of the threshold) Granted, they’ll be highly specced but the “average Joe” can’t contemplate being able to afford one of these (not that Porsche were ever classed as a car for the “average Joe” of course) but the cost to change is out of most peoples reach. I remember visiting a Porsche dealer in Naples, Florida in 2018 and spotting a highly specced 718 GTS 2.5 (not the 4.0 litre version) - that was over $111,000 back then. I for one will not be looking at anything new now - just not possible.

Cheib said: GT4RS said: Milemuncher said: Picked up my 991.2 GTS today and happened to mention that I still have a deposit in with another dealer on a 992.2. Dealer said they found out this week that all 992.2s will be hybrid, with much reduced allocations - their allocation for first year of production likely to be c.30 cars vs 70 x 992s this year, the suggestion being that production volume was being pushed onto SUVs and EVs with 911 to be pushed further upmarket. No idea if accurate but interesting nonetheless. Remember you were talking to car sales person, the old trick of sorry sir we won’t make enough of those for everyone. Limited numbers see! There is absolutely no way Porsche are giving out production information/specs for the 992.2 when it hasn’t even been launched. DP’s/Heads of Sales have probably seen one by now but Porsche won’t be letting information like all 992.2s being hybrid leak out…which they know it will. There was a Porsche GB meeting in Scotland last week where Dealer Principals were shown the new Macan E and Taycan Facelift. Apparently the Taycan is visually not hugely different to the current car as the cars aero dominates the design criteria. But the Macan E is apparently a very cool looking vehicle and will cost £70k base and have a 100kWh battery. If that is accurate that won’t do Taycan values any much needed help! They weren’t shown the 992.2….. Edited by GTS440 on Sunday 19th November 18:06

Does loyalty to any brand in any product or service market make sense today? Everyone is merely trying to get their hooks into your bank account through monthly payments, subscriptions & licence fees across any sector you care to name . It’s fundamentally a technological land-grab which had pushed so many into technological & financial serfdom. I think the old values of owning chattels outright, looking after things & repairing ad required is a path to financial independence & a route off the hamster wheel. I wouldn’t spare a nanosecond worrying about any of these corporates, they’ll always find a way to extract money from people.

I think as a company, Porsche will be fine - the family connections and link to VW will help. And let’s not forget, it wasn’t that long ago the company very nearly went under. This is a good read - bit of history and background to how it got to where it is… https://priceonomics.com/porsche-the-hedge-fund-th... Agree with others that the general ethos of an engineering-led performance car company is not as it was. I don’t think they’ll ever kill off the 911, if it’s still selling it’ll keep being made.

Let's be honest Porsche will be all over the sales data and they will be making adjustments accordingly. I was only discussing this at the weekend with someone who has several Porsche's including a couple of Taycan's. His understanding of the UK Taycan stockpile is due to a number of other factors. Ukraine war - sanctions being the main one, all cars headed for those shores (and China) have been blocked so Porsche looked to see where there was demand and pushed those cars to those countries the UK being one. They'll sell even if they have to cut the price. Most are company cars/salary sacrifice as the tax breaks are huge. It's the private punters who are getting their pants pulled down. Porsche will win on the initial sale, residuals are down so to get out of one costs the driver £££ and then Porsche can flip it for X. It's also winter, car sales, luxury car sales are down at this time of year so there's some adjustment going on currently, but come spring we may see that curve head upwards again.

Freakuk said: It's also winter, car sales, luxury car sales are down at this time of year so there's some adjustment going on currently, but come spring we may see that curve head upwards again. sales managers were saying that 12 months ago, but nothing changed in spring, stock levels have kept on rising

Also, let's not forget "Porsche" as a brand and organisation have many other facets - engineering & design for starters in and outside of the automotive sector. I think they'll be fine

Porsche will be fine. Its the people who believe in loyalty to brand as if it has reciprocity. Porschr have made some great products recently, better than competitors, but are maybe dining out on past glories a little now. Mercedes did this in the late 80s, ferrari in late 90s. Go where the best products are.

Penguinracer said: I think the old values of owning chattels outright, looking after things & repairing ad required is a path to financial independence & a route off the hamster wheel. Certainly in my neck of the woods, as well as novelty bias, there is a culture of new is automatically better in all main consumer segments. For people in my area (making a gross generalism of course) the value of something seems to be determined solely by its novelty or newness. This culture works very well for the corporates, Porsche included.

This may for now be the case, but many cars now include technology which compromises reliability / cost of ownership and driver satisfaction ... nudging enthusiast back towards cars of a certain age and relative simplicity. For the rest they are merely white goods with a badge ... a means to an end at a cost which is currently increasing by the day. How many features both current and planned, would we happily manage without ?? I'll start with: 1. The electric handbrake 2. Digital menu control options in place of simple switches 3. Modular lighting units that make the replacement of failed lamps an expensive business ... 4. Composite body panels that if damaged are unrepairable, are time consuming to obtain and expensive to replace 5. Driver assists which cannot be turned off 6. Complexity that makes almost no difference to the performance of a vehicle but which may fail in an expensive way ... such as Dynamic engine mounts ?? + ??

Porsche dump EV target as sales stall Porsche has abandoned its target for 80% of sales to be electric by 2030. https://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk/companies/new... fuller report (paywall) https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-07-22...

Very hard to ignore the cost advantage that the Chinese enjoy. As usual with new entrants they start low down the price range and will be greeted with suspicion by traditional buyers at the high end. For a while. I think China is a real threat and people will always buy the car that is most cost effective for the performance . Eventually there will be prestige Chinese cars too I have little doubt. Hard for Porsche to compete at the SUV end I suspect .

RDMcG said: Very hard to ignore the cost advantage that the Chinese enjoy. As usual with new entrants they start low down the price range and will be greeted with suspicion by traditional buyers at the high end. For a while. I think China is a real threat and people will always buy the car that is most cost effective for the performance . Eventually there will be prestige Chinese cars too I have little doubt. Hard for Porsche to compete at the SUV end I suspect . Personally I doubt it, people buy a Porsche SUV for the branding as well as the products perceived image, there is no brand recognition for any vehicles that come from China, at the moment they are more like disposable TV's. They can try with MG and buy brands like Volvo, Polestar and Lotus but from a branding and image point of view they have none that I'm aware of and this can take decades to build. The bigger question is can China create a home brand that the rest of the world will covet? They don't compete in Motorsports and China from a luxury point of view has no perceived heritage or luxury factor compared to Germany, Italy or even the UK. That's not to say they can't create this in the future but it takes a long time to develop.

Their share price has taken a hammering down over 40% in the last 12 months and trading below the IPO of 82 euros lost about 20 billion in market cap, but the share structure doesn't help, still trading at a healthy PE multiple though.

kalexan273 said: Personally I doubt it, people buy a Porsche SUV for the branding as well as the products perceived image, there is no brand recognition for any vehicles that come from China, at the moment they are more like disposable TV's. They can try with MG and buy brands like Volvo, Polestar and Lotus but from a branding and image point of view they have none that I'm aware of and this can take decades to build. The bigger question is can China create a home brand that the rest of the world will covet? They don't compete in Motorsports and China from a luxury point of view has no perceived heritage or luxury factor compared to Germany, Italy or even the UK. That's not to say they can't create this in the future but it takes a long time to develop. Interesting times re branding. I wonder if the future EV market will be based as more on price and innovation, and less on brands. Particularly with current high depreciation where Porsche are not much better than cheaper makes (you can get 20K off list for a pre-reg latest model Taycan.2). The losses on Porsche EVs may be slightly better percentage wise but given the high initial price they are much bigger. They still drive better, but the competition is catching up. Can the East do to Europe what Korea has done Japan (eg Samsung versus Sony and Toshiba, chip market etc)?

Wills2 said: Their share price has taken a hammering down over 40% in the last 12 months and trading below the IPO of 82 euros lost about 20 billion in market cap, but the share structure doesn't help, still trading at a healthy PE multiple though. This is only because the market anticipates a recovery in profits ... for this to happen Porsche will need to overcome their mis-steps in terms of reliability and the economy of their electric vehicles. Their GT vehicles have always been very clever in managing their mass and performance with clever design features. Porsche have much stiffer competition in the electric car market which are more akin to white goods and I personally find it hard to believe that they will be able to maintain their margin superiority, particularly since such a high percentage of their manufacturing material cost is imported and therefore outside their control. P.S. Maybe the timing of the IPO benefitted from substantial inside "inside" knowledge ? Edited by ChrisW. on Friday 26th July 11:08

Discombobulate said: kalexan273 said: Personally I doubt it, people buy a Porsche SUV for the branding as well as the products perceived image, there is no brand recognition for any vehicles that come from China, at the moment they are more like disposable TV's. They can try with MG and buy brands like Volvo, Polestar and Lotus but from a branding and image point of view they have none that I'm aware of and this can take decades to build. The bigger question is can China create a home brand that the rest of the world will covet? They don't compete in Motorsports and China from a luxury point of view has no perceived heritage or luxury factor compared to Germany, Italy or even the UK. That's not to say they can't create this in the future but it takes a long time to develop. Interesting times re branding. I wonder if the future EV market will be based as more on price and innovation, and less on brands. Particularly with current high depreciation where Porsche are not much better than cheaper makes (you can get 20K off list for a pre-reg latest model Taycan.2). The losses on Porsche EVs may be slightly better percentage wise but given the high initial price they are much bigger. They still drive better, but the competition is catching up. Can the East do to Europe what Korea has done Japan (eg Samsung versus Sony and Toshiba, chip market etc)? I’m not sure branding takes into account depreciation? Look at the cost of a Bentley, Rolls Royce or high end Mercedes or BMW, all get hit, many first owners are rich enough not to care about the an actual price. Same with all luxury brands, Porsche have been playing the overs market this last ten years, that seems to be coming to an end too. People buy a Porsche as it’s an aspirational target for them in life, I just don’t see the same with a BYD, though it will be interesting to see if the MG Cyberster sells well in Europe, I think though it will see Lexus sales figures. We can already see what China are doing with the Lotus brand and it seems to be driving away custom not increasing it.

ChrisW. said: Wills2 said: Their share price has taken a hammering down over 40% in the last 12 months and trading below the IPO of 82 euros lost about 20 billion in market cap, but the share structure doesn't help, still trading at a healthy PE multiple though. This is only because the market anticipates a recovery in profits ... for this to happen Porsche will need to overcome their mis-steps in terms of reliability and the economy of their electric vehicles. Their GT vehicles have always been very clever in managing their mass and performance with clever design features. Porsche have much stiffer competition in the electric car market which are more akin to white goods and I personally find it hard to believe that they will be able to maintain their margin superiority, particularly since such a high percentage of their manufacturing material cost is imported and therefore outside their control. P.S. Maybe the timing of the IPO benefitted from substantial inside "inside" knowledge ? Edited by ChrisW. on Friday 26th July 11:08 The bigger issue is whether VW is playing games with the market again. I’m guessing g that VW finance decide the finance rates for the company and they are very high compared to the other manufacturers under their wing. It’s having a massive impact on sales in the UK, it’s also pushing their customer base further up market and reducing it.

porsche have a done ranter to a degree, saying that their customers will pay what ever they want to charge lol and saying they will take customers from more prestigious brands. people dont move down from ferrari to porsche, its the other way round. i think they have a storm heading their way, once chinese firms get a grip on th ev market in europe. they are already back peddling and saying that they wont meet thier own target of 80% ev sales by 2030. whilst porsche is an aspirational brand, people are increasingly watching their pockets. imo when it comes to ev's there isnt enough to differentiate between brands apart from a badge and range(which asia's cars will be leading the way on) to jusitfy the premiums that porsche will try to charge. luxury goods markets are dropping and quickly. gucci and lv both annouced big drops in sales over last year, with both stocks dropping a fair bit over last 12 months. as with lidl and aldi, when they arrived in uk, people mocked them, but they are constantly increasing their market share and eroding the top 4's hold on the market.

kalexan273 said: I’m not sure branding takes into account depreciation? Look at the cost of a Bentley, Rolls Royce or high end Mercedes or BMW, all get hit, many first owners are rich enough not to care about the an actual price. Same with all luxury brands, Porsche have been playing the overs market this last ten years, that seems to be coming to an end too. People buy a Porsche as it’s an aspirational target for them in life, I just don’t see the same with a BYD, though it will be interesting to see if the MG Cyberster sells well in Europe, I think though it will see Lexus sales figures. We can already see what China are doing with the Lotus brand and it seems to be driving away custom not increasing it. Agree re aspiration and branding, but Porsche owners are not used to being hit so hard in the pocket as Taycan buyers have. And, as Sony etc learned, aspiration is easily forgotten when others do the same or better for less. Not suggesting the 911 will be hit, but the EV market could be very different. Less aspiration and more pragmatism. With an ICE in the garage for weekends

A relation of my wife's was visiting last week and he own's a share in some vw dealerships in South Africa. He was telling me that vw had halved the price of it's electric cars in China as it just couldn't compete with the Chinese cars which run the same electric motors as the vw. He has taken on 2 franchises for Chinese EV's as he see's that as the future. Not looking good for the German car industry.

stichill99 said: A relation of my wife's was visiting last week and he own's a share in some vw dealerships in South Africa. He was telling me that vw had halved the price of it's electric cars in China as it just couldn't compete with the Chinese cars which run the same electric motors as the vw. He has taken on 2 franchises for Chinese EV's as he see's that as the future. Not looking good for the German car industry. China's economic war on western companies continues...once they are in trouble, money bags China snaps them and more importantly their brand up.

EV MG's from £19,995 on the road ... https://www.luscombemotors.co.uk/browse/tp-1/ft-El... Edited by ChrisW. on Saturday 27th July 14:08

First the Chinese dumped steel. Now they're dumping cars.

Exactly ... but this has been coming. Production capacity being redirected towards the UK of unsaleable US and European capacity, due to tariffs. It is so blatant and we appear to be doing nothing to stop it ?? It's noticeable also that an extra 10kWh of battery capacity is priced at around £2500 ... so the battery is £12500 and the whole car is £7500 ??

But batteries are getting cheaper - apparently.

Everyone can get the cheaper batteries I’m pretty sure which would presumably be good for Porsche as Porsche’s value add would be a bigger slice of the pie.

'Last I heard the commodity cost was around £250 per kWh ... wrong ! Bloomberg say ... For battery electric vehicle (BEV) packs, prices were $128/kWh on a volume-weighted average basis in 2023. At the cell level, average prices for BEVs were just $89/kWh. This indicates that on average, cells account for 78% of the total pack price. Over the last four years, the cell-to-pack cost ratio has risen from the traditional 70:30 split. This is partially due to changes to pack design, such as the introduction of cell-to-pack approaches, which have helped reduce costs. On a regional basis, average battery pack prices were lowest in China, at $126/kWh. Packs in the US and Europe were 11% and 20% higher, respectively. Higher prices reflect the relative immaturity of these markets, higher production costs, lower volumes, and the diverse range of applications. There was also intense price competition domestically in China this year as battery manufacturers ramped up production capacity aiming to grab a share of the growing battery demand. Technological innovation and manufacturing improvement should drive further declines in battery pack prices in the coming years, to $113/kWh in 2025 and $80/kWh in 2030. Edited by ChrisW. on Sunday 28th July 16:53

Even Porsche Thinks the 911 Is Too Big https://www.motor1.com/news/728321/porsche-admits-...