996 PPI Question / Bore scoring

I have not been here in awhile. Have been Porsche free since 2018. I am contemplating buying a 996.2. It has a registered LN IMS Bearing already. The shop that I trust, and has done work for me, says that in their opinion bore scoping is not a worthwhile endeavor and can lead to a false sense of security. They believe that there is enough evidence of bore scoring, when it occurs, that can be found in a standard PPI by looking in the filter folds and with other evidence including engine noise. In this case the oil was changed on this car less than 1000 miles ago. Furthermore the seller is not willing to have "invasive" work done as they have other buyers also intersted and lined up If I dont buy it. Blah Blah Blah....Red flag there, I know. The question is: If there is bore scoring would metal show up in the oil after only 1000 miles to where it can be seen in a PPI? Chris Raleigh NC Former: 1987 951 - Guards Red 1985 911 Targa - Black 1987 930 - Black

Take my opinion with a grain of salt, but from my understanding, bore scoring is not always linked to a faulty (or the beginnings of a faulty) Intermediate Bearing. They're often connected, however I believe there have been a decent amount of cases where bore scoring has happened without an IMS failure. This is partly due to the composition of the materials used in the block and the pistons. You can go down a deep rabbit hole of Nikasik, Alusil, etc.

Perhaps the seller has done some used oil analysis (UOA), and perhaps they are willing to share the results? Your shop is not entirely wrong in their assessment, but if there is no UOA then you are blind. You can wait for your ears to tell you, I suppose. But by then you are in deep. There is value in early detection because measures can be taken to reduce the scoring and extend the life of the engine. I'd say your shop would do well to keep up to date on the topic.

Bore scoring is not linked to the IMS bearing, two totally different issues that really don't have anything to do with one another. 1,000 miles isn't much and I would not trust an oil analysis at this mileage to tell you for sure if it has bore scoring. The way to know for sure on this engine is to scope it from the sump. If the seller isn't willing to let you do that and has another buyer, let someone else be the sucker unless you are going into it willing to take the risk. Your shop's information makes me question their knowledge of this platform. Bore scoping is a worthwhile endeavor BUT you have to have a trained eye to know how to read the images. Too many people out there don't know how to do this.

Quotes source post: 19993436

Not necessarily. Depends on how bad the scoring is and how far gone it is. I doubt the previous owner and/or seller have done UOAs. They probably just looked at the filter and said �it�s fine,� which is what most �normal� people do. Once you start tearing apart seemingly good looking filters and looking closely, you start finding stuff that wasn�t easy to see before. Same with UOA and scoping. Most people are fine not knowing what�s up until something happens.

Well, with no bore scope, you put youself at risk. But you can do two other things if you really want to pursue the car. 1. Ask for the complete service history. What you want to look for is what service amd maintenence has been performed snd when, as well as how many oil changes. Limited oil changes are pretty much a give away for a greater potential for bore scoring. Old oil that has lost its lubrication qualities creates friction. 2. You can still test the oil even though it has less than 1,000 miles and see what the test says. High levels of silicon and aluminum mean bore wear. Good luck with it.

I did not mean to imply that the IMS was related, just that that it is not an additional concern. They have a clean blackstone used oil analysis but it is a year old. Oil change records are not available, they did not keep them and the tech that woks on it does it "on the side". Now they have agreed to have their shop do a bore scope this weekend. Then I will have a standard PPI on Monday. So I guess the situation is improving. The car is very clean and has no cosmetic evidence of neglect. There was a tiny puff of white smoke from the passenger side exhaust at startup

Quotes source post: 19993989

Fwiw, sounds to me that the owner hasn't done much in servicing and maintaining the car over his ownership. No records means a lazy owner, or an owner that is hiding something. Be thorough in your due diligence. Remember, there are plenty of 996s all over the US with great owners that have comprehensive service records that have been well maintained and refreshed with new parts over the years. Seems to me that his "side job" mechanic could come up with a list of what he has done to the car over the years and dates. Such as... 1. what LN IMS and dates 2. RMS replacements and dates, 3. clutch and flywheel replacements and dates 4. oil changes and dates 5. water pump changes and dates 6. coolant system parts and date 7. aos changes and dates 8. powers steering parts and dates 9. Suspension parts and dates 10. Exhaust parts and dates 11. Other, etc You get the idea. The more the previous owner did, the less you have to reach in your pocket to do.

The car has had 6 owners, Carfax shows regular service but often lacks detail. Here is a Carfax summary Owner 1 had it 4 years, 9 services in 16k miles, "serviced" shown on carfax with no detail Owner 2 had it 2 years, no service history on carfax, drove 15k miles. Owner 3 bought from a lexus dealership, had it 4 years, and shows 5 "services" in 5k miles, traded back into lexus dealership, which shows on oil change, Owner 4 bought from same lexus dealership, had it 6 years, drove it 12k miles, and replaced Water pump and thermostat 7 years and 15k miles ago. Oil change detail shows once on this owner ( I should call this lexus dealership) Then Physical Records start: Owner 5 had it 2 years, and 4k miles, did LN IMS Retrofit kit, rear main seal, clutch, pressure plate, and flywheel, plugs, motor mounts, hood struts and oil separator which were done 4 years and 12k miles ago Battery, brakes and coolant expansion tank and other misc cooling parts were done 3 years and 10k miles ago Current owner bought a year ago, had the Blackstone oil test has receipts for various cosmetic parts, and tires but no maintenance records. Put 10k miles on it. The hood has been painted. You cant see it but you can feel the tape lines on 1 corner. The rest of the car has original paint. Any car has some level of risk. Thats why we do our research! Obvious negatives are the number of owners and the lack of detailed records. The big one I'm worried about is if something has happened in the last year since this owner bought it. So the question I am left with is: do I think that a year old oil analysis on a car that has no visual evidence of neglect, a recent PPI and now will have presumably brand new bore scope photos provided is enough "proof" that the engine is currently solid.

Quotes source post: 19994242

There is good news with what you found. Since you have at least 10 Carfax referenced service records, there is a fair chance that you may have had at least 10 oil changes over its life. Which may bode well for your bores. Oil test and borescope will help to confirm their condition. The water pump is 7 years old and should be replaced ASAP. Looks like owner #5 did alot of maintenance items 3-4 years ago which is good news for the durability of your car and your wallet. Since the current owner was willing to do a bore scope, ask him to take pictures of the sump when it's off so you can see whats in it, as well as save the oil filter so you can look at it. Might as well get one more oil test as well to compare to last year's test. The reality is that it's a buyers market again for 996. Good luck with the process!

It sounds like you are getting all the important questions answered. Let us know how it turns out.

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Above in red...Truth!

Quotes source posts: 19993436, 19633228

Can understand that, but it does bring up a couple questions/worries as to why not. Some valid, some possibly concerning... Hard to argue the benefits of getting a good bore scope ppi on m96 cars for the buyer. Nothing takes its place. IMO no bore scope, it$ a big gamble no matter how you look at it ( $30-40K ). A less costly lots less invasive bore scope can be done from the spark plug hole that imo gives just as good results. While I do see a big benefit of inspecting the sump to give a better picture of engine condition, its not needed for a basic good bore scope. Plugs out compression tests are common ppi (on many not m96) . As long as plugs are out....while you're in there could even do one on the m96 after bore scope for a better picture of engine health. Ya I know the big m96 engine Kahuna only recommends from the sump,,, twisting and turning, convoluted fishing a scope thru cylinders pin holes around corners to see all bores. While I respect Big Kahuna's opinion, its obvious after looking at piston height/position BDC, more or less ALL bore score can be seen fine from spark plug hole. IMHO, to put it clearly, if there is any bore score, you can see it from plug hole. Slakker Performance that does many m96 Hartech nik'd cyl rebuilds, also explained spark plug hole bore scope on m96, with Photos just a few months ago on this forum.... File Type: pdf Hartech Bore Scoring Report.pdf (621.4 KB, 118 views)

Without getting into which method is better, I would want to drop the sump before buying regardless...

Seller provided these, which were allegedly taken yesterday. 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6

anybody know if these marks in cyl 6 are anything to be concerned about?

They are not very good photos since they are only showing you a small section of each cylinder but I don't see any scoring in what you have posted. The squiggly line in cylinder 2 is not a crack but rather just a normal mark in the casting.

Quotes source post: 19996207

I did not even pick up the casting mark. Thank you for looking at them

Looks good to me

PPI was today. Has these codes: ~Alarm System codes: ~60 Central locking limit position lock not reached. ~54 Radio receiver faulty. ~33 Passenger compartment monitoring sensor. Has a leak they suspect is from the rear main seal. Nothing else significant of note. Obviously an RMS is a big job, relatively speaking, and was done 4 years ago.

I wouldn't worry much about the RMS. It's not a catastrophic part that you gotta replace. Quite frankly, it will probably leak less if the car is driven more frequently. The pictures you posted of the bores look good. Besides the codes you posted, what about the rest of the PPI? Suspension, exhaust, powersteering, cooling? What needs to be replaced?

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Let me guess, it has an aftermarket radio installed?

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Yessir!

Quotes source post: 19998292

BINGO!!! The alarm has an open circuit at the radio level. This is because of the alarm wire that was clipped to the Becker radios. If dismounted, it will trigger the alarm and give DTCs. One you find the alarm wire, cut the connector off and insulate the wire. The car will be happy again.