Long term ownership from the 997 to the 991-NA-Water Cooled - Page 2 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Hi Chaps I am interested to hear from anyone who has had long term ownership of a 997 to 991. By long term ownership I am looking at a minimum of 5 years and mileage covered of over 30K (so ignore original mileage and just comment on mileage covered during ownership....unless bought new). I have a 991 and I am interested to understand the reality of long term ownership of these cars. The reason for this topic is harking back to old days of car ownership. If we go back to the 80s and 90s when our parents owned cars I recall them holding onto their cars for years. My Dad had a Mercedes and Range Rover which he ran for nearly 2 decades. My father in law owned a Mercedes which he had for at least 30 years (he bought it new) and several others after that which he ran for at least a decade. We don’t do that in our generation (45 and up). We have been sold into the American consumption theory and frequently trade in (I am just as guilty). However we have reached the cliff edge where the performance on offer simply cannot be appreciated on public roads. And I for one am not venturing to a track. So curious to hear the experience of any long term owners. What has it been like (apart from the savings) and any recommendations? Also is there anyone out there who has had long term ownership of a 991.1 GT3. I ask because the cars appear to be flipped shortly after purchase or parked and sold a few years later with little to no mileage on the clock (yes the E/F/G series engine issues are well documented).

65k and 15 years for our 997 4s. As well as routine maintenance it has cost around 30k for a complete refresh over last few years. Highlights: New suspension (arms, dampers, links etc) and DSC (Center Gravity) Hartech 4.1 with new manifolds, clutch, cats, water pump, tandem pump, oil pump, oil cooler, coolant tank and lines - and everything else they found “while in there” Trigger’s broom and a keeper.

Hi, I assume your 997 is a Gen 1? O Discombobulate said: 65k and 15 years for our 997 4s. As well as routine maintenance it has cost around 30k for a complete refresh over last few years. Highlights: New suspension (arms, dampers, links etc) and DSC (Center Gravity) Hartech 4.1 with new manifolds, clutch, cats, water pump, tandem pump, oil pump, oil cooler, coolant tank and lines - and everything else they found “while in there” Trigger’s broom and a keeper.

Discombobulate said: 65k and 15 years for our 997 4s. As well as routine maintenance it has cost around 30k for a complete refresh over last few years. Highlights: New suspension (arms, dampers, links etc) and DSC (Center Gravity) Hartech 4.1 with new manifolds, clutch, cats, water pump, tandem pump, oil pump, oil cooler, coolant tank and lines - and everything else they found “while in there” Trigger’s broom and a keeper.

FrancisA said: Discombobulate said: 65k and 15 years for our 997 4s. As well as routine maintenance it has cost around 30k for a complete refresh over last few years. Highlights: New suspension (arms, dampers, links etc) and DSC (Center Gravity) Hartech 4.1 with new manifolds, clutch, cats, water pump, tandem pump, oil pump, oil cooler, coolant tank and lines - and everything else they found “while in there” Trigger’s broom and a keeper. I had to look up Trigger’s broom....still laughing as I type.

FrancisA said: Hi Chaps I am interested to hear from anyone who has had long term ownership of a 997 to 991. 2007 997 turbo manual owned for 11 years and 40k miles…… it now has 60k miles on the clock. Routine maintenance and replacements. Couple of rads replaced that took stone hits. PCCM+ added. Overall very pleased with it….

I don’t hit your mileage criteria but 997 GTS manual, owned 10.5 years and I have covered 15k miles (28k total). Front heat exchanges replaced recently but not a lot else other than routine servicing and maintenance. Ready for another 10 years

wax lyrical said: Hi, I assume your 997 is a Gen 1? O Discombobulate said: 65k and 15 years for our 997 4s. As well as routine maintenance it has cost around 30k for a complete refresh over last few years. Highlights: New suspension (arms, dampers, links etc) and DSC (Center Gravity) Hartech 4.1 with new manifolds, clutch, cats, water pump, tandem pump, oil pump, oil cooler, coolant tank and lines - and everything else they found “while in there” Trigger’s broom and a keeper. Yes. 2008

I would not own a 991.1 GT3 long term….the engine issue is a complete unknown in th long term and you will be on your own once the cars get past 15 years as that’s the limit for the Porsche Warranty. If it’s a road car I’d have a 997 GTS Manual, I owned one for six years. Currently own a 991.2 GT3 which I bought new in May ‘18. GTS can be driven harder on the road because it doesn’t catapult you at the horizon as quickly. The manual box and Poerkit engine (has a better top end that the standard Carrera S engine) in the GTS are a wonderful combination

c4sman said: I don’t hit your mileage criteria but 997 GTS manual, owned 10.5 years and I have covered 15k miles (28k total). Front heat exchanges replaced recently but not a lot else other than routine servicing and maintenance. Ready for another 10 years What year is the car? This gives me a perspective on the long term ownership of these cars.

Cheib said: I would not own a 991.1 GT3 long term….the engine issue is a complete unknown in th long term and you will be on your own once the cars get past 15 years as that’s the limit for the Porsche Warranty. If it’s a road car I’d have a 997 GTS Manual, I owned one for six years. Currently own a 991.2 GT3 which I bought new in May ‘18. GTS can be driven harder on the road because it doesn’t catapult you at the horizon as quickly. The manual box and Poerkit engine (has a better top end that the standard Carrera S engine) in the GTS are a wonderful combination I have to agree with your point about long term ownership of the GT3.

Surely there will be a good aftermarket solution for a .1 GT3. The car’s too good for them to become worthless. Places like Hartech will surely be able to do a top end rebuild and engineer in more reliability.

Grantstown said: Surely there will be a good aftermarket solution for a .1 GT3. The car’s too good for them to become worthless. Places like Hartech will surely be able to do a top end rebuild and engineer in more reliability. At what cost though? Prior to owning a Porsche I only ever bought Mercs and I had never heard of engine rebuilds. It seems to be a Porsche thing. Not sure why. Is it the boxer configuration? Happy to be educated by anyone who is familiar with this.

Grantstown said: Surely there will be a good aftermarket solution for a .1 GT3. The car’s too good for them to become worthless. Places like Hartech will surely be able to do a top end rebuild and engineer in more reliability. I don’t know enough about engines to know if it is possible to rectify what seems to be a fundamental design flaw. Look at how many iterations of the engine Porsche have come up with. I think I’ve seen mentioned somewhere that even the latest generation have had failures ? That could be wrong thought. I am sure that Hartech or someone like them will come up with something but I’d imagine they’ll only start doing that work when cars are out of warranty ?

FrancisA said: c4sman said: I don’t hit your mileage criteria but 997 GTS manual, owned 10.5 years and I have covered 15k miles (28k total). Front heat exchanges replaced recently but not a lot else other than routine servicing and maintenance. Ready for another 10 years What year is the car? This gives me a perspective on the long term ownership of these cars. My car is is a 2011 997.2 GTS. It’s spent most of those 10.5 of my ownership used in all weathers but I try to avoid salty roads and is stored in a garage with a dehumidifier. It’s serviced regularly by Porsche initially and now by Parr and wants for nothing it needs. Admittedly in recent years I’m only covering around 1000 miles a year (due to using other fun cars) but in the first few years of ownership it was more like 3k a year. Very little has broken or worn out, I’ve done one track day and it held up very well for a non GT car. As a road going 911 with enough power and excitement but comfy ride I can’t find anything better for today’s congested roads. I think 400 bhp is a sweet spot. The only mods I made many years ago were a sharkwerks centre exhaust bypass (the standard fit PSE is still a little restrained) and I have the DSC PASM module on standard settings which has improved ride quality and made sport mode much more usable. I also have a centre lock wrench set up in the frunk that have written about here before so I’m self sufficient in removing the wheels. That’s it. I’ve had a 987 Boxter S, 997.1 C2S coupe, 997.1 C4S Cab, 997.1 Turbo Coupe and 997.1 Turbo Cab but found a sweet spot in the GTS which is why it stuck.

I had a 2005 997.1 2S for three years & about 15k miles, I’ve currently got a 2016 991.2 4S & covered about 17k miles in it. In my view the overall mileage of the respective cars is important to know. I bought the 997 in 2018 at 50k miles knowing it had bore scoring issues which was sorted by a Hartech rebuild, it also needed cross over water pipes, new bushes and brake lines. That cost about £13k to sort out. It suffered a broken rear spring and needed new brake discs. I bought the 991 in 2021 at 24k miles. It has a full Porsche warranty & has been serviced twice, overall maintenance & warranty has cost about £4,500 in the three years. One odd thing is that the previous owner had driven in a manner so the brake discs filled with brake dust that filled the vent holes. The discs are very expensive & not very worn, so the holes were drilled out. Turbo failure is a thing on these cars but mine has not suffered.

991.1 GTS, just under 5 yrs, and iirc 25k. Nothing but standard maintenance/tyres if one discounts the suicidal pheasant that took out the bumper.

N111BJG said: I had a 2005 997.1 2S for three years & about 15k miles, I’ve currently got a 2016 991.2 4S & covered about 17k miles in it. In my view the overall mileage of the respective cars is important to know. I bought the 997 in 2018 at 50k miles knowing it had bore scoring issues which was sorted by a Hartech rebuild, it also needed cross over water pipes, new bushes and brake lines. That cost about £13k to sort out. It suffered a broken rear spring and needed new brake discs. I bought the 991 in 2021 at 24k miles. It has a full Porsche warranty & has been serviced twice, overall maintenance & warranty has cost about £4,500 in the three years. One odd thing is that the previous owner had driven in a manner so the brake discs filled with brake dust that filled the vent holes. The discs are very expensive & not very worn, so the holes were drilled out. Turbo failure is a thing on these cars but mine has not suffered. That seems a lot for 3 years of ownership. What went wrong?

ellroy said: 991.1 GTS, just under 5 yrs, and iirc 25k. Nothing but standard maintenance/tyres if one discounts the suicidal pheasant that took out the bumper. I was advised by a friend to stick with the 991.1 and avoid the .2 because of the NA engine and apparently those engines are supposed to be reliable. Good to hear that you have only had standard maintenance.

FrancisA said: N111BJG said: I had a 2005 997.1 2S for three years & about 15k miles, I’ve currently got a 2016 991.2 4S & covered about 17k miles in it. In my view the overall mileage of the respective cars is important to know. I bought the 997 in 2018 at 50k miles knowing it had bore scoring issues which was sorted by a Hartech rebuild, it also needed cross over water pipes, new bushes and brake lines. That cost about £13k to sort out. It suffered a broken rear spring and needed new brake discs. I bought the 991 in 2021 at 24k miles. It has a full Porsche warranty & has been serviced twice, overall maintenance & warranty has cost about £4,500 in the three years. One odd thing is that the previous owner had driven in a manner so the brake discs filled with brake dust that filled the vent holes. The discs are very expensive & not very worn, so the holes were drilled out. Turbo failure is a thing on these cars but mine has not suffered. That seems a lot for 3 years of ownership. What went wrong? Assuming you mean the 991, the full cost was this Service in 2022 - £1555 Service in 2024 - £1684 (got a discount for being a repeat customer & replacement coil packs sorted under warranty) 2024 Warranty extension - £1100 Plus 2023 Drill out brake discs + new pads - £700 2023 Non scheduled check over & oil change prior to 'Autobahn' holiday - £300 2024 £600 cost to replace rear camera loom as mice ate through it ! I have almost worn out the rear tyres that were nearly new when I bought it, I've held off until Black Friday, but I expect they'll be around £750. The services have been done by an OPC, the rest by a specialist who recommends that I keep the warranty going.

N111BJG said: FrancisA said: N111BJG said: I had a 2005 997.1 2S for three years & about 15k miles, I’ve currently got a 2016 991.2 4S & covered about 17k miles in it. In my view the overall mileage of the respective cars is important to know. I bought the 997 in 2018 at 50k miles knowing it had bore scoring issues which was sorted by a Hartech rebuild, it also needed cross over water pipes, new bushes and brake lines. That cost about £13k to sort out. It suffered a broken rear spring and needed new brake discs. I bought the 991 in 2021 at 24k miles. It has a full Porsche warranty & has been serviced twice, overall maintenance & warranty has cost about £4,500 in the three years. One odd thing is that the previous owner had driven in a manner so the brake discs filled with brake dust that filled the vent holes. The discs are very expensive & not very worn, so the holes were drilled out. Turbo failure is a thing on these cars but mine has not suffered. That seems a lot for 3 years of ownership. What went wrong? Assuming you mean the 991, the full cost was this Service in 2022 - £1555 Service in 2024 - £1684 (got a discount for being a repeat customer & replacement coil packs sorted under warranty) 2024 Warranty extension - £1100 Plus 2023 Drill out brake discs + new pads - £700 2023 Non scheduled check over & oil change prior to 'Autobahn' holiday - £300 2024 £600 cost to replace rear camera loom as mice ate through it ! I have almost worn out the rear tyres that were nearly new when I bought it, I've held off until Black Friday, but I expect they'll be around £750. The services have been done by an OPC, the rest by a specialist who recommends that I keep the warranty going.

FrancisA said: N111BJG said: FrancisA said: N111BJG said: I had a 2005 997.1 2S for three years & about 15k miles, I’ve currently got a 2016 991.2 4S & covered about 17k miles in it. In my view the overall mileage of the respective cars is important to know. I bought the 997 in 2018 at 50k miles knowing it had bore scoring issues which was sorted by a Hartech rebuild, it also needed cross over water pipes, new bushes and brake lines. That cost about £13k to sort out. It suffered a broken rear spring and needed new brake discs. I bought the 991 in 2021 at 24k miles. It has a full Porsche warranty & has been serviced twice, overall maintenance & warranty has cost about £4,500 in the three years. One odd thing is that the previous owner had driven in a manner so the brake discs filled with brake dust that filled the vent holes. The discs are very expensive & not very worn, so the holes were drilled out. Turbo failure is a thing on these cars but mine has not suffered. That seems a lot for 3 years of ownership. What went wrong? Assuming you mean the 991, the full cost was this Service in 2022 - £1555 Service in 2024 - £1684 (got a discount for being a repeat customer & replacement coil packs sorted under warranty) 2024 Warranty extension - £1100 Plus 2023 Drill out brake discs + new pads - £700 2023 Non scheduled check over & oil change prior to 'Autobahn' holiday - £300 2024 £600 cost to replace rear camera loom as mice ate through it ! I have almost worn out the rear tyres that were nearly new when I bought it, I've held off until Black Friday, but I expect they'll be around £750. The services have been done by an OPC, the rest by a specialist who recommends that I keep the warranty going. Yes I was referring to the 991. I was given the same advice. Do the standard servicing at the OPC and maintain the OPC warranty and the non standard stuff at a specialist.

FrancisA said: I was advised by a friend to stick with the 991.1 and avoid the .2 because of the NA engine and apparently those engines are supposed to be reliable. Good to hear that you have only had standard maintenance. I’ve now a .2, because I snagged a manual. The 3.8 is a wonderful thing though, superb noise. In pretty much all areas the .2 is better, that’s the way of Porsche isn’t it? Incremental improvements, but that N/A lump……

First, I would never buy a 991 GT3. Has to be 997 or 992 GT3 for the obvious reasons. I have a 997.2 GT3 with 64k miles. The only thing that had to be replaced, was one driveshaft due to corrosion, and a few radiators. Solid car. Cost in general is all relative. All depends what you do with the car and where you service it. To give you a few numbers. Add labour to all but #6 1. Alcon brake discs - set of 4 probably £4k (Good stuff like PFC, Brembo, Giro same price) 2. PFC08 pads - maybe just under £2k 3. Drive shaft £1k 4. Cup2 tire set - over £1k 5. Front wishbones - £1k each 6. Engine oil, gearbox oil, ignition coils, spark plugs, brake fluid and air filter. Around £3k A full Mezger engine rebuild, has to be around £40k, as parts are very expensive. Wonder how much that would cost at Porsche for a 991 that is out of warranty for comparison. A Porsche will never be a cheap car to run if used.

mm450exc said: First, I would never buy a 991 GT3. Has to be 997 or 992 GT3 for the obvious reasons. I have a 997.2 GT3 with 64k miles. The only thing that had to be replaced, was one driveshaft due to corrosion, and a few radiators. Solid car. Cost in general is all relative. All depends what you do with the car and where you service it. To give you a few numbers. Add labour to all but #6 1. Alcon brake discs - set of 4 probably £4k (Good stuff like PFC, Brembo, Giro same price) 2. PFC08 pads - maybe just under £2k 3. Drive shaft £1k 4. Cup2 tire set - over £1k 5. Front wishbones - £1k each 6. Engine oil, gearbox oil, ignition coils, spark plugs, brake fluid and air filter. Around £3k A full Mezger engine rebuild, has to be around £40k, as parts are very expensive. Wonder how much that would cost at Porsche for a 991 that is out of warranty for comparison. A Porsche will never be a cheap car to run if used. GT3 costs are significantly more than the standard C2S. The brake pads and discs are frightening in the pricing. I assume they are CC.

Cheib said: I don’t know enough about engines to know if it is possible to rectify what seems to be a fundamental design flaw. Look at how many iterations of the engine Porsche have come up with. I think I’ve seen mentioned somewhere that even the latest generation have had failures ? That could be wrong thought. I am sure that Hartech or someone like them will come up with something but I’d imagine they’ll only start doing that work when cars are out of warranty ? Places other than Porsche must be rebuilding cup engines for people. Suspect it might be more cost effective to drop in a .2 engine, which look like they’re available for 20K on the used market.

FrancisA said: GT3 costs are significantly more than the standard C2S. The brake pads and discs are frightening in the pricing. I assume they are CC. Nah, Steel, but on par with ceramics. Ceramics, no idea what they cost now. But I remember a while back around £20k?

10 year of ownership of my 2005 c2s. 40k miles. Total bills for servicing and maintenance over that period stands at £30,000 inc VAT

ELROR said: 10 year of ownership of my 2005 c2s. 40k miles. Total bills for servicing and maintenance over that period stands at £30,000 inc VAT That is 3K a year on maintenance. That is absurdly expensive. Were you tracking the car every weekend?

I owned a 981 GT4 from 2015 (new) to early this year doing around 34,000 miles and a lot of trackdays. The car was well maintained with oil changes every 4000 miles or so (due to my usage) ... and nothing went wrong. Nothing. Regarding the 991.1GT3 / 991.2 GT3 / 992GT3. The engine could be problematical in all the 991.1 variants ... less so in the RS and R versions in part due to the 8800rpm rev limit. The 991.2 and later GT3's had solid valve lifters which seem to have resolved most issues, there are one or two engine failures but very few and there will always be some. Some people also appear to be quite careless with their cars ... these facts may not be linked ! Herewith a summary I have of the improvements of the 991.2 GT3RS engine over that of the 991.1 GT3RS (which was said to be the best of the 991.1 GT3 engines). P.S. The greatest risk must be a 991.1 GT3 collector vehicle that has never been driven (they don't go wrong when they aren't used) ... and the best protection would be using the top of the rev range sparingly and with regular oil changes where the car is worked hard. Bear in mind also that on these dry sumped engines only half the oil is changed at each oil service ... so three oil serviceses still leaves 1/8th of the very old oil in the engine ... Edited by ChrisW. on Sunday 22 December 14:30

ChrisW. said: I owned a 981 GT4 from 2015 (new) to early this year doing around 34,000 miles and a lot of trackdays. The car was well maintained with oil changes every 4000 miles or so (due to my usage) ... and nothing went wrong. Nothing. Regarding the 991.1GT3 / 991.2 GT3 / 992GT3. The engine could be problematical in all the 991.1 variants ... less so in the RS and R versions in part due to the 8800rpm rev limit. The 991.2 and later GT3's had solid valve lifters which seem to have resolved most issues, there are one or two engine failures but very few and there will always be some. Some people also appear to be quite careless with their cars ... these facts may not be linked ! Herewith a summary I have of the improvements of the 991.2 GT3RS engine over that of the 991.1 GT3RS (which was said to be the best of the 991.1 GT3 engines). P.S. The greatest risk must be a 991.1 GT3 collector vehicle that has never been driven (they don't go wrong when they aren't used) ... and the best protection would be using the top of the rev range sparingly and with regular oil changes where the car is worked hard. Bear in mind also that on these dry sumped engines only half the oil is changed at each oil service ... so three oil serviceses still leaves 1/8th of the very old oil in the engine ... Edited by ChrisW. on Sunday 22 December 14:30 From my perspective these are too many reasons to risk owning one unless it is inside a Porsche warranty. And even then you are in a trap of sorts. By 2029 all 991.1 GT3s will no longer qualify for the warranty. Therefore you are sitting on an economic time bomb. I was at RPMTechnik a few weeks ago and they have a 991.1 GT3 for sale. The salesman told me it can cost as much as 50K to repair the engine if anything goes wrong. You can see the values of the 991.1s crashing from 2027 onwards as the earlier 2012 iterations come to the end of the 15 year warranty.

Which is why I think the 991.2 is the 991 GT3 option ... of the other 991's, many are similar to the 981 GT4 that I ran faultlessly for over eight years ... hence I mentioned it.

FrancisA said: Hi Chaps I am interested to hear from anyone who has had long term ownership of a 997 to 991. We don’t do that in our generation (45 and up). We have been sold into the American consumption theory and frequently trade in (I am just as guilty). However we have reached the cliff edge where the performance on offer simply cannot be appreciated on public roads. And I for one am not venturing to a track. I would have thought this changing cars like under pants isn’t particularly an age thing but a modern thing. I am early 50s and never done it. These kinds of cars are expensive to pay cash for and so the modern PCP allows more people to access them. I have had my air cooled 911 for 20 years and will keep for ever. I quite fancy a GT3, wouldn’t touch a 991.1. Probably would go for a 997.2. Smaller car and a bit less refined. If it wasn’t a GT3 would possible go 991.1 GTS Or 997.2 GTS in manual. I do find the 991 onwards a lot bloaty though. Not sure if eihter would be a keeper though beyond are years.

supersport said: FrancisA said: Hi Chaps I am interested to hear from anyone who has had long term ownership of a 997 to 991. We don’t do that in our generation (45 and up). We have been sold into the American consumption theory and frequently trade in (I am just as guilty). However we have reached the cliff edge where the performance on offer simply cannot be appreciated on public roads. And I for one am not venturing to a track. I would have thought this changing cars like under pants isn’t particularly an age thing but a modern thing. I am early 50s and never done it. These kinds of cars are expensive to pay cash for and so the modern PCP allows more people to access them. I have had my air cooled 911 for 20 years and will keep for ever. I quite fancy a GT3, wouldn’t touch a 991.1. Probably would go for a 997.2. Smaller car and a bit less refined. If it wasn’t a GT3 would possible go 991.1 GTS Or 997.2 GTS in manual. I do find the 991 onwards a lot bloaty though. Not sure if eihter would be a keeper though beyond are years. What model do you have and what is the mileage?

I agree with all of your comments below. From the 991 onwards, the 911 DNA is being lost - turning into a Panamera Coupe. I have a 997.2 C4S and love it. Your 993 is definitely a keeper though - not many around and they have developed a cult following - hence the crazy prices. supersport said: I would have thought this changing cars like under pants isn’t particularly an age thing but a modern thing. I am early 50s and never done it. These kinds of cars are expensive to pay cash for and so the modern PCP allows more people to access them. I have had my air cooled 911 for 20 years and will keep for ever. I quite fancy a GT3, wouldn’t touch a 991.1. Probably would go for a 997.2. Smaller car and a bit less refined. If it wasn’t a GT3 would possible go 991.1 GTS Or 997.2 GTS in manual. I do find the 991 onwards a lot bloaty though. Not sure if eihter would be a keeper though beyond are years.

I've owned my 997.1 C4S since early 2012 and covered 41k miles in that time. Have spent £17k in maintenance alone (services, wear and tear), that's plus all other stuf such as upgrades / tax / fuel / depreciation. According to my Excel detailed calcs thats £1163/yr on average. I'm planning to keep it long term still with the only "risk" to that being emigration from UK.